So I just had a discussion that kind of bothered me in the Chat room.

Thing1 mentioned that he respects the LGBTQ community EXCEPT for the Transgendering or transsexuals or Trany or of that sort. He would not call a Transgendering person (in specific guy to girl)  a SHE until said person does not have any testicles anymore.

But I disagreed saying that it might offend such person. What if it makes them more comfortable about themselves and going through the process of going from man to woman to be called a FEMALE OR SHE before it is complete. It could offend them completely and or make them feel self conscious not being considered  a woman already especially if he is dressing up as a woman already.

Thing1 doesn't care. This is not an attack I just want to show where I'm coming from because it was not being understood in the Chat room.

Yes because some guys that dress as a woman also like Drag Queens or tranys prefer extremely to be called a woman when in drag. It is just polite to call them that (unless they don't care). It's probably as bothersome as constantly telling a gay guy that he has to marry a woman because he is a male and not a female.

thing1 : Just want you to see what I'm talking about. I respect your opinion but I can't say fully what I wanted to say when in chat.

Here's the problem with not respecting transgender pronouns based on body parts.

1) The person might not have the money to go through such a proceedure. The money adds up pretty fast.

Depending on what you want, I've heard estimates of $15-17 THOUSAND dollars.

2) The person might not want to go the whole way.

Once you commit to gender-change, you commit to taking hormones basically your whole life.

You might not want yourself to be mutilated JUST so others will call you by the correct pronouns.


If someone identifies as a woman, I use "she". If someone identifies as a male I use "he". If someone identifies as neither, I use "they".

There are other biological reasons for why sex (parts) in many cases does not align with gender (he/she/they).

This is really a hotbutton issue, because I know a guy who identifies as a girl, and personally I'm torn on what I believe.

On the one hand, I believe if you are physically a male, no matter how badly you want to be female, that you are a male. You can be into dudes or women or whatever, but if you have male parts, physically, to me, you are a male.

But on the other, I believe that intent is important. IF you have the intent to one day become a female, and take hormones and the other, that you are transitioning, and have every right to be called he or she, depending on desired pronoun.

To me, I guess, it's all about how far you are willing to take it. I have respect for people who are open about who they are, but I find it harder to respect people who aren't willing to commit to the transition fully. If you can't because of finances, it's one thing, money is hard. But if you are just afraid of mutilating your junk, then to me, you have to be the gender you were born as.

I don't want to say it, but I think most people honestly just do it for the attention.

I believe both sides have valid points, and I'm just somewhere in the middle on it.

I don't know. It doesn't really bother me. I'd personally never date a transexual person, because I might one day want to have children the "normal" (I have no better way to describe it) way. I can't really do that if the woman I'm dating was born a man. And I don't want to have to break someone's heart saying "I'm sorry, I want kids, and I want them the 'normal' way.

But that aside, I have no real problems with them. They are free to live their lives, as I am free to live mine.

legacyme3 :

But with a lot of transgender people you might not know about their parts for a long time. If you found out after a few years that a woman you knew actually had male parts, would you suddenly change pronouns? If not, why wouldn't you grant leniency to someone whom transitioned during the time you knew them?

There are also a lot of androgynous looking people. I'd personally feel uncomfortable trying to label them as male or female based on parts (since it's intimate knowledge). It's infinitely easier and more respectful just to identify people as they want to be identified.

When people gender someone based on their parts, it's often about having sex (implicitly).
But to the transgender person, it's much bigger. It's their whole life.

EideticMemory :

Generally speaking, you wouldn't think you'd know, but if it's early enough in the transition, at my age, it will be evident. I can speak romantically, and often do (at least when single) with both men and women, so that doesn't bother me. It's just part of my character. I flirt with everyone, man, woman, or neither. I'm almost never serious though. That's not me having an attraction. That's me having fun.

If I was talking to a woman (who was really a man) and started talking more intimately with them to the point where I found their parts, honestly, I probably would start to address that woman as a guy from that point on. It doesn't really matter to me if I thought they were a girl, once I know something, I can't unknow it. And I'm firm in at least partially believing if you have man parts, you are a man, regardless of whether you want those parts. It has nothing to do with desire. On the biological and physical level, at that point in time, they are a man to me.

And androgynous looking people have little to do with transgender people, but even so, if a guy looks like a girl, I will wait until they correct me. You can say you are whatever you want, and I'll believe it, it's whatever, but if I know you are a man for whatever reason, then I'm going to call you a man. If you are a man, and one day, you decide you want to be a woman, I will call that person a man until they become a woman. I've tried on multiple occasions to change this behavior, but I really can't. This one person I know, I can't change the fact I believe they are a man, so we've more or less stopped talking to each other. I respect their right to a choice, but just the same, you have to respect my right to disagree. You can call yourself what you want, but if I think of you as something else, I can't call you what you want to be called.

I know about the transgender issue, and what it implies, I know it's bigger than sex to them, and that's fine, I get that. But to me, it can't be more than that, because it's honestly a world I'm not interested in and don't care a hell of a lot about. I have had this discussion with people who actually are transgender, and those who stand up for transgender people (though I'd argue it's more white knighting than actually defending) and I've just come to the conclusion that I'm never going to see totally eye to eye with them.

So I've more or less come to a "live and let live" point.

That doesn't mean I'm going to change pronoun use though. If I see you as a guy, you are a guy to me. If I see you as a girl, you are a girl to me. That's really all there is to it. If somebody I know is offended by me calling them the wrong thing, we weren't going to get along with to begin with.

Thank you for your replies. I see some of the debate so far and I'm glad it's going smoothly. I also see where both parties come from.

EideticMemory : I'm on board one hundred percent with you on this. You brought some interesting things about this debate that I didn't even think of like the financial aspect of the process. That didn't cross my mind when the subject was brought up in the chat room. It is such a big change really. I saw a short movie on youtube about a boy that actually trans gendered fully in order for a boy he grew up with to love him back the same way he loved him. This was based on a true story of sorts. Included actual audio of the radio station that set up their reuniting on the radio to see the guys answer to the now trans gendered boys confession of love to him. It really is an important decision to make when they decide to go through with it for the rest of their lives. A real... eye opening decision.

legacyme3 : I'm also on board one hundred percent with you as well. You explained it much better on this point of view than I got from the chat room. I respect peoples opinions on this subject. You have brought up something that some people wish to change but really can't change. Only the person with the opinion can change their own opinion on something like this. Not being able to bring yourself to call a transgendering male a she is quite a situation but your explanation on why is what brings me on board to your ship. If you have a strong belief that a she is a she and a he is a he and then someone comes along and says he is a she.. That is baffling and much an inner struggle to see it that way. It sounds like you go about it in a respectful way and that is all I look for when it comes to opinions. Respectful opinions being put out on the floor in comparison to a rude opinion with no backing explanation is really what starts to turn the world.

I don't know why it's a conversation at all.  If someone wants to be called a certain name, like Jim or Chrissy or whatever, we call them that.  That's their name and what they identify to.

If someone wants to be called he or she or it or they make something else up, that's fine.  I believe for legal documents, like driver's licensure, or other federal or medical documents, they're identified by their current physical gender.

I can want to be a male all I wish but when I go to a doctor and I have a uterus, I'm dealing with a different set of problems.

I'll call people whatever they want because (a) it usually means a lot of them and (b) it means nothing to me.  I don't care.  It's not that I'm pro or anti anyone.  I just don't give a crap.  I'll respect the person, though, and call them he, she, it, whatever.

Well to put it simply, yes. I'm not one who is overly concerned with a persons gender due to the simple fact I am mostly concerned with the person and not their body. That's not to say I don't have my own desires, but I prefer a sort of mind over matter approach to things.

I actually know a couple transgender people and still consider them my friends, so I mean really now, why wouldn't I?

I really don't even understand why this is an issue. I am a male, I haven't had a sex change or anything, I was born a male and I wish to remain a male. But if someone referred to me as "she" or "her", I really wouldn't care. I think people that are transgender should be even more understanding considering that choosing the correct pronoun is confusing when you were born one gender and wish to be another gender.

EideticMemory : Woah woah woah. 15-17k? I don't think so. For the simple ones, its 40 THOUSAND. Without those 2 weeks of hospitable bills or all of that.

Thing, that isn't right. They're just people too.

Just to be honest, you don't have to refer to them as She, but don't EVER say it or any of that. If you just call them a boy, do it RESPECTFULLY and don't just be rude about it. If you decide to be rude about it, that is when things happen. They're just people who find that they aren't placed into the correct body and any of that. If you just want to decide to be rude and disrespectful to them, by all mean do that, but I sure hope that later that person will feel bad about it, as if you don't address the situation right, the person on the other end could be destroyed.

When it comes to the whole LGBTQA section of the world, a lot more respect has been handed out, by mostly to the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Queer, and Asexual portion of this. The people who get the least amount of respect IS those Transgender people as the whole idea seems crazy and stupid to a lot of people. The problem with this is that a lot of people don't exactly know how it feels to have to be in that situation where you just hate who you are and wish you were different. Saying that you are against all of that or any of that in that matter is just so wrong.

If someone wants to be the opposite of what they were made to be, just let them. There is no reason to be doing any of this arguing about any of this. They are just people who have different wants and needs and a different view on life. Personally, when someone is called by what they actually want to be called, then it really affects them positively, but when they are called what  they don't want to be called and the person who is calling them ACTUALLY means it, then that is when it is wrong.

There is no problem with not liking who you are, and people who can't respect someone for not wanting to be the way they were made need to get with it. Not just calling out thing in here, tons of other people in the world also disrespect all of the Transgenders out there, and that is what needs changing. 

If you accidentally call someone the wrong name, then it is perfectly fine, but when you say that you CAN'T RESPECT these kinds of people, that is when it gets out of hand and that is what needs to  be fixed.   

Barathemos: Nope, if somebody identifies as female and you refer to them as male intentionally, then you are being disrespectful period. Accidents are fine so long as you apologize and correct yourself.

I would respect them for the most part just to be nice (even though I think it's weird and somewhat wrong), but I agree with thing1 in saying that I would call a guy-girl transgender a he and a girl-guy transgender (if those exist) a she still. They're not truly a she until they lose the balls.

I think it depends on what the person in question wants to be referred to as. People aren't truly based on what, they are based on who. If they want you to address them as a girl, do so. If they want you to address them as a boy, do so. If they don't specify then do what I do. Call them by name. If I'm not sure what someone wants to be called I use their name because no matter what kind of changes you make to yourself a name is a name. (And if they change their name call them by the new one)

TheFadedWarrior : The one thing we need to stop doing if we're ever to stop the perpetual oppression and abuse of trans people is the concept of "truly a she."

Also what business is it to you what they have in their pants? Tell me, would you be okay with someone refusing you to call you a guy or by your birth name/preferred name until they see your genitals? 

"Respecting someone for the most part" for their identity isn't nice and will never be nice, get over yourself.

Myelin : Lol. Your response shows me that A) You are a transgender and B) You are way too irrational and childish to be taken seriously. I am done with this thread. I have nothing wrong with transgender people, but a pronoun means absolutely NOTHING.

tgags123 : First of all, wrong, I'm not transgender, but I do drag, I have trans friends, and I am an LGBT rights activist. You're only gonna deal with my points by calling me irrational and childish (ad hominem, anyone?) when I'm trying to call you out on your transphobia, nice!

Also please give me the phone number of whomever declared you the mighty "can decide what has meaning for people" guy, I'd really like to talk to them.

Myelin : You didn't make any points, you just complained, hence why I called you irrational and childish.

If I was transphobic I would say so. I'm not afraid to speak my mind. Again, I have nothing wrong with people changing their genitals or wanting to be a different gender, but it is completely ridiculous for you to flip out about someone calling you he instead of she, or vice versa.

I have no reason to disrespect somebody who isn't disrespecting me, or for that matter has nothing to do with me.

They can do whatever they want, they aren't me, so why should I make a big deal out of it?

tgags123 : Oh! Stop the record! I have been accused of complaining! That means I'm wrong for sure.

No, I did make a point. Since you clearly didn't get it when reading it at first I'll restate it: "It's cool and groovy if pronouns don't matter to you, but they do matter immensely to some people and it would be minimally decent if you could respect their desire to use correct pronouns when referring to them. It's ok to mess up, but when you call them by the pronoun that they've rejected intentionally, you're being hurtful"

Now, let me explain why its awful for anyone to mess up pronouns (I've done it myself, and I've been corrected by my trans friends). You see just about every transgender person experiences something called gender dysphoria. To save you some Googling time, I'll tell you what that means: when they live with or are treated as the gender they were assigned at birth, they get immensely depressed, it ruins their day, and when it is a constant it can even make them suicidal (see: Leelah Alcorn). This is a psychological condition that is fixed upon transition (i.e. Changing your parts and your appearance to that of your preferred gender, but also includes being treated as your preferred gender.) So whenever you call a trans person the wrong pronouns, you intensify whatever dysphoria they have.

Think I'm making this all up? Nope, the greatest authority in psychology, the APA, describes this in their psychology  manual, the DSM-5. Do look it up.

When you misgender (call by the wrong pronoun) a trans person, you are abusing someone that is experiencing a psychological condition. If your insistence to maintain this abuse isn't straight up transphobia, I don't know what it is.

EDIT: removed some sass.

I probably will have a pretty controversial view, lol. Still, I've shared my thoughts in chat once or twice, and I figure once more won't hurt.

I want to start off with a pre-post disclaimer: My opinion is not meant to disrespect, mock, or otherwise bully any transgendered people (or their supporters). This is simply my opinion, and I don't plan to force it on other people.

Now that that's out of the way, time for my opinion.

I guess the tl;dr of my view is this: If your gender matters so little that you can change it based on feelings, why can't I call you what I want based on my own feelings? Why does the pronoun I use to refer to you matter, if you can change your gender based on feelings?

Now, that's not to say I want to specifically disrespect anyone for their views of gender, but it does mean that I feel perfectly free to refer to someone who is physically male as a male (or vice versa). As leggy said: "And I'm firm in at least partially believing if you have man parts, you are a man, regardless of whether you want those parts. It has nothing to do with desire."

So, pretty much, if you're physically male, I'll refer to you as male (regardless of your feelings, because feelings change. physical attributes like that don't change based on season of life and such.). Same goes for if you're physically female. I don't have the time, energy, or patience to bow to your pronoun desires. It's wasted energy, imo.

In addition, my faith also guides my thoughts on this subject. In Psalm 139:13, the Psalmist writes that "For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother’s womb.". Wouldn't that suggest that God specifically cares about us, even from before the moment we're conceived? To me, this verse says that God specifically has a hand in our conception. I mean, I'm not saying that He literally knits us together or anything, but I do believe God is present and somewhat involved in our development within the womb (again, not necessarily physically, but stick with me). Therefore, to say that we were born with our genders physically incorrect is to say that God made a mistake. If God made mistakes, then He wouldn't be God. The Bible would be incorrect and hypocritical in many ways. Everything about Christianity would be quickly and rightfully thrown into question, just from one simple mistake by God. Because I am personally convinced that the Bible (in it's original script) is perfectly accurate, I therefore do not believe that God makes mistakes. As a result, I believe that being born with a physically incorrect gender isn't viable, because that would require a God who cannot make mistakes to make a mistake.

Hopefully I wasn't too confusing with my wording there, lol.

As the popular saying goes: "Hate the sin, not the sinner". In the same way, I don't respect the choice to be transgendered. I definitely respect the people, I just don't necessarily respect their choices.

As a final point: If gender can be controlled by feelings, not by physical attributes, then that makes gender relative. Gender is supposed to be a truth about yourself, correct? If gender is relative, then that means that the truth about your gender relative as well. If that truth is relative, it's no longer truth, since truth is based on facts. If your 'psychological' gender violates the fact that you're physically [insert gender here], then you're violating physical facts (DNA, body structure, etc). Therefore, saying that your physical gender is incorrect, and therefore your body's DNA is flawed, is saying that the truth about your body is incorrect. If truth is incorrect, it is no longer truth. Therefore, if this truth has no longer become truth, but is instead relative, then the way people refer to you is also based on the same relative truth. Since I believe (as I described above) that being truthfully transgendered would require God to no longer be God (since truth is based on facts, and the Bible states as a fact that God cannot violate His perfect nature: He doesn't make mistakes), the truth I understand and believe in states that you've made a decision I can (and choose) not to honor.

Of course, if you're not a Bible-believing Christian, everything I just said is completely worthless to you.

I feel like my wording could easily confuse people, so please don't hesitate to ask clarifying questions. In addition, there are quite a few other aspects of transgendered-ness that I chose not to touch on. If people hate on me enough, I may end up explaining other facets of transgenderedness that I chose not to touch on today.

Myelin : To be completely fair, phobia means 'a persistent, irrational fear of a specific object, activity, or situation that leads to a compelling desire to avoid it.' (source: Dictionary.com) Personally, it doesn't appear as though tgags a fear of transgendered people. You're accusing him of abusing transgendered people, not of being afraid of them.

Also, if someone has a psychological condition, we generally try to treat it, not encourage it... (example: rather than pushing to make autistic people heads of society or culture, simply because they're autistic, we're attempting to find a cure). If trans is a psychological condition, we should be looking for treatments to help these people, not fighting to ensure their right to have this condition.

To clarify, I'm not saying I believe trans is a psychological condition. I'm simply saying that, if it was, we're going about this all wrong. We shouldn't be fighting over it, we should be trying to fix it.