I do not know if it is just me, but whenever there is any controversy regarding anything about GOD, or as many say--religion, if they do not like what they are hearing, they say that you are violating their rights. Really? Is that all it is? In that case, I can think of a lot of things that violate my rights! This won't be the prettiest place to start, but what about those gays that are all over each other in public. I'm sorry but I think that's disgusting, and they are taking away my right to not have that image in my head. Think that's stupid? My point exactly. I feel like people anymore are too weak and cowardly to actually put up a real argument, so they fall back on the old "rights" routine. How about this, you're taking away the rights of parents to be able to send their kids into school to learn the BIBLE--without having to pay for it. Why? Because someone decided to claim the right not to see someone praying or reading their BIBLE. 

If you think I'm making this thread to trample over your rights, that's the last thing that I really want. The founding fathers gave us a bill of rights that we have. Many were christians, but they all believed that you should have the freedom to choose what to believe, even if you should choose to believe that there is no GOD. And I really do not see how things like "Christmas" infringe on that right. I just do not want people to be blind in saying that we're attacking their rights, when that is not the issue. If I say Merry Christmas, seriously, how does that infringe on your rights. If you say Happy Holidays, how does that infringe on mine. It does not. 

LunarDarkness2 : If I am not mistaken, I believe you to have said that you are an atheist. Perhaps you can help me in this debate. Say we are eating at a restaraunt together, if I bow my head and pray over my food, does that infringe on your rights? If you don't does it infringe on mine? If i tell you why I believe the way I do and you tell me the same, are we hurting each others rights. But if you say, You cannot believe in GOD because he is not real, and I say you have to because he is real. That is senseless. Yet I still do not feel an infringement of rights, because it is merely words. Here's what I think, if you seriously think there is an infringement of rights because I say merry christmas, and you say happy holidays, something is wrong in my opinion, Don't you think so? I'm not trying to be offensive, just trying to get to the bottom of an issue that has bothered me for so long.

To be honest, I don't really mind when people start doing religious things around me. I used to believe, but I guess something happened that made me stop. Anyways, America is a free country, and the first amendment clearly states that there is a freedom of religion, so people may practice religion freely. So, I really don't mind if I was in that situation, but I probably wouldn't go ahead and pray with you, because of what I believe. But, I don't want to make you think that I'm being rude or anything, but It's just what I believe. I'm not very sure what country you live in, but people need to understand that everyone has a freedom of religion and their choices. It's their life choices that decide what is going to happen.

LunarDarkness2 : You are exactly right. I would not be offended if you didn't pray, you wouldn't be offended if I did. I live in america founded as a free nation. And I want it to stay that way. We are supposed to have freedom of religion, so we need to be respective of each other. Not hindering each others rights in the name of protecting our own.

FaithFighter : Honey, I explained this to you in a debate we had elsewhere, but here I go again. You praying, saying Merry Christmas, or just generally being Christian does not infringe on anybody's rights, and those who say so tend to be immature and zealots, but that's a vocal yet very very very tiny minority. Someone preventing you from praying in a public space would violate your rights, unless you are being otherwise disruptive.

HOWEVER, the right to religious freedom comes into play with features regarding the government and public entities, like public schools. Teaching the Bible in public schools is unacceptable, since that would imply a government bias to Christianity, and as you know, not all Americans are Christian. There is no such right as "rights of parents to be able to send their kids into school to learn the BIBLE--without having to pay for it." because if that right exists, then the right of a parents to send their kids to school to study the Koran without paying exists. Any holy text should be taught in public schools ONLY in electives, and even then I'd be iffy about it. Also mind you, people have not claimed the right to not see people praying or reading the Bible, they have claimed the right to a government that does not show preference for any religious system, and given that, again, public schools belong to the government, a school should not show bias towards Christianity. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion [...]" this means that America is not, and never will be a Christian nation, just as it won't be a Muslim or Jewish nation.


You rely too heavily on strawmen you make of secularists, we are not "too weak and cowardly to actually put up a real argument" we simply believe that when you try to argue that schools and the government should be Christian, you are implying a violation Americans' rights as per the Constitution of The United States of America.

FaithFighter : You have a very fundamental misunderstanding as to what the therm 'rights' mean in a legal sense. You are saying that anything that you want for your personal life is a right that is protected. As stated by Myelin, that isn't the issue. The issue is the violation of rights being protected by law of the constitution. You bring up teaching Bible in school. Sending your kid to school to learn the Bible is not a right, it is a preference. Every parents are required to give their kids school. It is a compulsory education law. If you want to send your kid to school to learn the Bible, send them to a Christian School. If you can't afford that, do homeschooling. Public school is a government run system for those who cannot afford private school and are not capable of properly homeschooling. Because it is required by law to send your kids to school, it would violate the Constitutional given rights of freedom of Religion to put the Bible in the curriculum. There are other religions, lack of religious belief, and many different branches of Christianity, and putting the Bible in the curriculum is forcing kids to be taught under a specific religious belief. That is a Constitutional right. Not putting the Bible in public education is NOT a violation of your Constitutional rights. Now, if the curriculum required that students be told that their religious belief is wrong and shouldn't be followed, that would be a violation. But that isn't what happens. It is a middle ground. The kids aren't being taught the Bible, but the curriculum isn't enforcing anti Bible. Religion isn't supposed to be discussed between student and teacher in the classroom setting.
You use the example of the 'right to not have that image in your head'. Same thing applies to you. If you kiss your girlfriend or wife in public, you 'taking away others rights to not have that image in your head'. Unless you are willing to make it illegal to have ANY public display of affection between ALL people, then what you are saying is an issue. In this case, you are being a hypocrite. What images you want to have in your head are NOT protected by the US constitution. But not allowing people to be able to be with their love in the same way EVERYONE else gets to just because your personal feelings are that it is gross isn't right, pure and simple. Nobody is violating your LEGAL rights. Just your personal feelings. In that case, you honestly just have to grow up.
We agree on the Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas thing. Some take it too far, and both sides are wrong about it. The main thing is that there is no Law stating that saying Merry Christmas is illegal. That would be violation of your right to religion. When it happens in stores, for example, that is a corporate thing. A corporation is more than within it's right to tell employees to say happy holidays, and within their right to be okay with them saying Merry Christmas. ANyone who makes a big deal of this particular issue is just being nit picky. But the other 2 issues you brought up are an issue with rights.
I agree that you rely on strawmen arguments. You take something such as 'rights' and drastically generalize it and misrepresent what the issue really is. It is a very weak argument that holds pretty much no merit. When REAL LEGAL rights are violated, it is an issue. Most of the things you bring up are trying to compare legitimate violations to things that just personally make you uncomfortable. This is no different than saying "I'm sorry, but I think a 30 year old kissing a 60 year old is disgusting and they are taking away my right to not have that image in my head". There is NO difference from what you said and that. And I am pretty sure that you would be plenty pissed if schools started teaching religious text that isn't Christian. Your issue isn't about religious freedom. If it were, you would have extended that to ALL religions. Instead, you just want the Bible in school. Another very hypocritical view.

Rights come from a word.


Righteousness.

Morality either comes from the Father or from your own mind. The foolish man built his house on the sand, and when the rains came they destroyed everything. But the wise man built his house upon the rock, and when the floods came, he and his family were safe.

When you have a right, it means that morally you are obligated to certain things. Right's are unalienable, and come from our Creator, without him there are no rights. Just matter, and energy.

Sword legion : So are you going to make an argument or just make pseudo-cryptic references to the Bible?

Also all of what you said is irrelevant and avoids the question, come on, really queen?

Myelin :

wat

Myelin :
Sword legion :

Lets stop before we all get into a big argument, please.

Myelin : Arguments come from the need to communicate.

Persuasion is a product of social interaction or internal conflict. Two men are stranded on an island. One of them is a fisherman and the other a moocher. The moocher asks the fisherman to teach him to fish so they can double their food supply. To insure his own survival, the fisherman ignores the moocher and doesn't share. The moocher convinces the fish in the sea that the island is dangerous, so the fisherman catches no fish, and the fish carry the moocher across the sea back home.

Arguments are only applicable to society. Without society, arguments are nothing more than a string of random letters and syllables.

rcarter2 : What are you on about, darling? 



"Arguments are only applicable to society. Without society, arguments are nothing more than a string of random letters and syllables."



Yes, your point being? We're in society all right, and in a debate board it's essential that we make arguments, not amateur theology riddle-ish fluff.  Your post is kinda non-sequitur, hon. I don't doubt that you're super clever and versed in anthropology but man, I fail to see how that relates with me telling someone "answer the darn question or go home." 


EDIT: lesson of the day: breathe slowly and try to understand when people are on your side and being sarcastic 


LunarDarkness2 : Debate is in the header, we do big arguments. So long as it doesn't become a flame war, I don't see what's wrong with calling out someone answering exactly zero percent of the question.

Sword legion : As I've been lurking the boards, I've noticed that you always post random gibberish. I'm not Christian but I know enough to know that isn't from the Bible. What is that from, Cthulu for Dummies?
   What the heck does righteousness have to do with this? "Morality either comes from the Father or from your own mind. The foolish man built his house on the sand, and when the rains came they destroyed everything. But the wise man built his house upon the rock, and when the floods came, he and his family were safe." That isn't righteousness, that's basic common sense. Also, rights are different than righteousness. Better luck next time dude.

I just don't get why you Americans are so anal (no pun intended) about these things. I went to school, I learned my bible there and yet I am not repulsed by the gay people, yet some people here are too, ofcource. I am not sure if I remember right, but one of the reasons your good old ancestors got out of here from this poor country called Yurop was that you wanted to be some where that everybody could keep their noses out of other peoples religions and believes anyways. Well, especially if you are a good white protestant like myself. You know, separate the church from the state? Politics from religion? Does that ring any bell over there?

You expect your schools to teach your kids bible so you don't have to? If they don't teach enough about it there, there is sunday schools or You could teach them about it Yourselves? You don't want your kids to learn math, biology or to associate with the people who they have to deal with eventually in their later life, just because you don't believe in evolution? Do you think if you don't tell your kids about sex, they are not gonna end up in 15- and pregnant? Home schooling? Do you really think You know enough to get your kids to or through college than a qualified teacher?

Damn, why don't we all just join the Taliban while we are at it. Taliban with Christ. Would not that be swell? "Liberty" and "justice" for some of us. Or else. Since we are disgusted by some, offended by most and scared of every damn thing and believe every little conspiracy we are fed to. You think the Russians are crazy these days? Or the North-Koreans? That is what your religious right wants. Just their own version of it. #spit#

And I am repulsed by many people. But I live in a free country. I have the right to be repulsed by them and they have their right, to find me repulsive too. But neither of us have the right to tell each other what to do.

Brigand : More than just Christians are repulsed by Gays... There are many people who think that it's wrong... Many who believe nothing about the Bible... 

About the Americans being so "stupid..." I would be careful, as it was America that helped Europe, (Including Scandinavia) to finish the Second World War. It was America that has given the world much of the current culture. Don't go into rage and call everyone in a country stupid, that's just not a good move. 

Homeschooling... Well, I am homeschooled, and believe me, my Parents didn't have much to teach, it's run by a school... So maybe check into it, before making conclusions...

I personally believe that everyone has a right. But, my rights stop, where other people's rights begin. If my "right" infringes upon other people's right, I think it best to not use that right. People now-days are quick to say, "But it's my right!" and they forget, that other people have rights too. 

darthyoda :

Since my country sided with the Nazis, American influence did very little to improve us. We were just glad that the soviets (your beloved allies) did not completely take us over.

But sure, maybe I was being a bit harsh. And still, I think some people maybe should take a look in the mirror. I shut up for now.

SilverHyruler :  “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.  The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.  But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.  The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” (Matthew 7:24-27).

Not random gibberish.  The words of Jesus Christ.

SoL@R : Even then, rights are tottally different then righteousness, and thats plain common sense anyways.

Rights don't exist.

A right is simply a protection against government coertion: freedom of speech, of peaceful assembly, of religion, of the press, etc. 

"Many were christians, but they all believed that you should have the freedom to choose what to believe, even if you should choose to believe that there is no GOD"

Exactly. The United States was founded by Christians but is NOT a Christian Nation.

Furthermore, ANY other rights that involve a product (education, health care, a.k.a positive rights) necessarily negate other rights and freedoms since someone (usually government) will have to forcibly take away someone's rights to "give you" that right.

janus :

The nation wasn't founded by Christians. It was founded by Deists. Deism and Christianity are fundamentally opposed. Deism says God does not interact with his creation. Christianity says Jesus, who is God, became flesh. Christianity can only affirm the opposite: God absolutely interacts with his creation.

And the protection against government coercion is coming from the government. It's not a right, because the government could equally say "nevermind" and the right would disappear. If you were to argue "But I have the right to peaceful assembly!" the government could easily respond "Not any more. That right came from us. And now I take it away".

I don't even think you have the natural (non-governmental) right to life, let alone liberty and pursuit of happiness.