I personally have never understood all this rapture business. Many Christians have told me that God considers man his children and if this is so, then why would he damn most of them to hell when this rapture starts? A loving father would forgive and help them to move on. The other thing I've always wondered is what if someone is a good person, but hasn't accept Jesus into his or her heart or whatever the exact terminology is? Let's say the Christians are right and God does follow the Bible and all it's teachings, would an Islamic Mother Theresa be damned just because she isn't the right religion? From what I've gathered from all religions is that you need to be a good person to move on into the next stage after death. Who really cares if we disagree on exactly how to get there or what happens, lets just be nice to each other anyway.
Oh and on another note, Christians are persecuted in different parts of the world, but they aren't nearly as persecuted as people of other faiths are. With all the different sects and stuff combined, Christians make up the majority religion, with Islam falling in second. With that number of people, obviously they aren't being too persecuted or else there wouldn't be so many of them.

rlmathias01 : I always felt that Christianity's big message was non-violence, loving your brother, being a good person, etc. I'm not so sure anymore.

God spends much of the Old Testament punishing humanity. It's in the New Testament that he's more loving. From what I've seen, people who are only good Christians because they fear punishment are not really all that good. I never understood why God would make people have free thoughts if he just wanted us to be his puppets.

You're right, Christianity outweighs other religions in volume of its members. In fact, the world has been shaped by Christians. The years that we go by are from before and after Jesus's death. Many of the most powerful nations of the world were predominately Christian. Christians haven't been persecuted heavily since the days of the Roman Empire. In my opinion, the Jews have gone through the most adversity.

I wish it was as easy as everyone just agreeing to be good people to move onto the next plane of existence together. That's really what religion is, it's to keep people good.

NotJon : See you've brought up a good bit of the reasons I'm not Christian, or any religion for that matter(I'm actually agnostic). Now I respect religious people, I actually envy them to a point. I would just love to have the absolute faith I have seen in some people. Unfortunately, I don't see the point in believing in one religion when there's just as much of a chance that I'm wrong and another religion is right. No one is omnicent, so how could one group say they know all the answers? Like the end of the world, maybe what happens after death is supposed to be a surprise; the next great adventure. Maybe nothing happens and we just rot in the ground. Maybe we move on to a paradise to live out eternity. Maybe we are reborn and get a chance to play this game called life again or what happens after death is beyond our comprehension. My point is, we just don't know.

rlmathias01 : "Many Christians have told me that God considers man his children and if this is so, then why would he damn most of them to hell when this rapture starts?"

The underlined statement is false. The Bible never said that Man are children of God, only those who are saved (John 1:12). By nature, Man are "children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3)

"The other thing I've always wondered is what if someone is a good person, but hasn't accept Jesus into his or her heart or whatever the exact terminology is? Let's say the Christians are right and God does follow the Bible and all it's teachings, would an Islamic Mother Theresa be damned just because she isn't the right religion? From what I've gathered from all religions is that you need to be a good person to move on into the next stage after death. Who really cares if we disagree on exactly how to get there or what happens, lets just be nice to each other anyway."

There is a misunderstanding here. Christians do not believe that good people go to heaven, because there is no such thing as a "good person." God's standard is perfect, and by that standard, no one is good enough to go to heaven (Romans 2:12). So now the question comes, how can people be reconciled from sin, and the answer of the rest of the religions are, in some sense, moralism: "Do this, behave better, follow this religious practice regularly." On the other hand, Christianity teaches that God became a man and took the ultimate sacrifice for sin on the cross, and defeated death, and offers those who believe in Him and trust in Him to have eternal life. Those who receive Christ means they trust in God to clean their slate, and they are seen as "righteous" in front of God, and God would give them a new heart with new desires, so they would have a 180 degree change in their life. Those who don't are relying on themselves to try and save themselves, but they can't do it on their own, because no matter what, they will still fall short and God would give them for what they deserve from their sins. This is where the huge difference comes in.

"Oh and on another note, Christians are persecuted in different parts of the world, but they aren't nearly as persecuted as people of other faiths are. With all the different sects and stuff combined, Christians make up the majority religion, with Islam falling in second. With that number of people, obviously they aren't being too persecuted or else there wouldn't be so many of them."

In some sense, persecution of Christians is actually one of the reasons Christianity expanded. Think back of the fall of Jerusalem, originally the church hid underground and sent missionaries around the Roman Empire and have house churches. By the time Jerusalem fell, Christians living their were forced to leave and spread the faith even more, and then it came to the point that it because the faith of the empire itself. That is currently the situation in China, where Christians worship in hiding and houses, and open proclamation of faith would be arrested or punished.

You see in the US, there isn't really something like that. One defect about this situation is that one can't easily tell if someone is faking being in Christianity, and there are a lot of fakers in American churches today. No faker would be willing to die for something they don't truly believe in.

NotJon : "I always felt that Christianity's big message was non-violence, loving your brother, being a good person, etc. I'm not so sure anymore."

It was never this message.

play4fun : I was following this thread pretty clearly but your post was a little fragmented and I'm not sure I understood what point you were making so let me try to clarify:

rlmathias01 : "Many Christians have told me that God considers man his children and if this is so, then why would he damn most of them to hell when this rapture starts?"
The underlined statement is false. The Bible never said that Man are children of God, only those who are saved (John 1:12). By nature, Man are "children of wrath" (Ephesians 2:3)

I believe the underlined statement to in fact be true. I believe rlmathias01 when he says that many Christians have told him that. If you're saying that God, Who created the Heavens and the Earth, *doesnt* consider man his children.. then that would make him a poor and irresponsible Creator. Which He isn't. So of course He considers us all his children and why He wants us all to accept Him into our hearts. We may have strayed from the path but we are still His flock.
Or.. if you were just taking the words in your copy of the Bible literally, then remember that those are NOT the words God wrote. He wrote them - through His disciples - in Hebrew. Translations between languages are never exact, and I would dearly love to read the volumes of God's words which were omitted sometime in history from the Bible, I'm sure I would find enlightenment in them, but my readings from the books of the Bible that the Church has chosen to publish, makes it clear to me that God loves all of us, as if we were his children (again NOT in a literal genetic/birth way) even though I accept that man's writings about the "children of God" might refer only to those who believe.
All of that aside - the core point that was made was that God loves us all, and so why would be damn the majority of the world's population to Hell when they may simply never have been told the Good Word, or were too dumb to accept it? I was just in a topic about education where I was saying how essential it is for kids to get a good education. If "not making the grade" at Christianity means Eternal Hell, that would be a poor way to deal with our less gifted kids.. but we don't kill kids who fail at school, we keep trying, and we accept them into our society. I don't believe the God who sustains me through all the (many) bad times I've endured in my life, would cast aside everyone who failed to accept His love. Especially when He doesn't provide proof, that would sound more like something the Devil would do, to trick people into damning themselves.

There is a misunderstanding here. Christians do not believe that good people go to heaven, because there is no such thing as a "good person."
Most Christians I have been lucky enough to have in my life would disagree with this. Whilst very much a "dumbed down" version, its exactly what they believe, but a truly good person who has heard the Good Word will naturally worship The Lord, which fits your criteria, however none of them would tell me that means automatic guaranteed Hell for the "Islamic Mother Theresa" above who may have been deprived of the proper Christian upbringing and access to Pastors and Churches that we all take so much for granted. Their view would be that yes, not everyone outside of the USA are evil, some are good, and it remains important that we reach out to them via Missionaries because it is only by following the many examples of the Lord our God set out in the Bible that one can guarantee eternal paradise at His side.

So in summary.. no, I don't believe "the Rapture" will take place on that date, or at any other specific date. I believe God loves us all and He will never give up on us.

NotJon : "I always felt that Christianity's big message was non-violence, loving your brother, being a good person, etc. I'm not so sure anymore."
It was never this message.
Well thats the message I took away from my Christian education too. Love thy neighbour. Turn the other cheek. Help the needy. It is our capacity to understand that message despite there "not being anything in it for us" that raises us above the animals and godless selfish people, and what sets us firmly on the path to accepting Jesus Christ into our hearts and spending our lives learning about His love so that we might be considered worthy when our time comes - when we die, not at some random time when everyone's time is up. We all have one lifetime to prove ourselves worthy of spending eternity in Heaven with God, that's short enough, I don't think the Rapture is supposed to be some "thats it, your time is up" sort of deadline. Its symbolic for when each of us reaches the end of our personal journey here on Earth. That's all.

Take Care,
Corum.

1 John 3:1 – “How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God!”

Corum : Thank you for your detailed response. I will try to reply to your response as clearly as I can.

First of, we both agree on one thing, that the Rapture is not on the day that was pointed by Mr. Camping. The belief of whether a rapture would happen or not is debated in the Christian circle, and it is not important since they all ultimately believe that Christ will return soon.

Now to talk about the 3 specific topics at hand. You cover a lot of extra topics in your response that I don't have the time to answer single one, so I am going to cover the 3 main topics that were discussed here, and if you have more questions, you can reply again or message me specifically.

1. Children of God : Again, I have mentioned that the Bible NEVER referred to nonbelievers as Children of God. You did mention correctly that we are created in the image of God and God does love His Creation. What you do not understand is that God did not leave us, we left God. When we sin against God, we become enemies of God: "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life." (Romans 5:10) The letters in the Bible were to the church at that time reminding them that before they were saved they were CHILDREN OF WRATH BY NATURE: "among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." (Ephesians 2:3)

Again you are correct that God is love, but you missed another attribute of God: "just" (Psalm 7:11). God is a just judge and he judges the deeds and actions of all of us. And if he were to see that, obviously we would all be guilty, because we all have sinned...but that is why there is the main message of Christianity, which I will answer when I get to the 3rd point.

And the version that I used to find these verses is a "word for word" translation style of the Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic, but if you really want to be sure that I'm not just nitpicking certain versions, I'll give you the comparisons between different word-for-word versions of the Bible of Ephesians 2:3 for you. These translation methods are to go back to the original language and translate the text as accurately as possible (explained this in this thread: https://www.vizzed.com/vizzedboard/thread.php?id=27216&ppp=100&page=0#388425 ). You would find that they all are saying pretty much the same thing:

Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of body and mind, and so we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. (RSV)

Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of body and mind, and so we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. (RV)

All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else. (NRSV)

among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. (NKJV)

Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. (NASB)

among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:-- (ASV)

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others (KJV)

among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind (ESV)

Even the verse that you wrote at the end of your reply: 1 John 3:1 – “How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God!” You need to read the context of the verse. The book of 1 John was written to THE CHURCH (Read the first chapter of 1 John). He refers Christians as children of God, and he was expressing joyfulness that they can be called that.

2. There is no such thing as a "good person": Jesus himself said that "no one is good, except God alone" (Mark 10:18) You need to understand that Christians believe that they are going to heaven NOT because they are a good person, but because they are really really bad [wretched (Romans 7:24); lawlessness (1 John 3:4); evil (Matthew 7:11),etc etc], but are forgiven and reconciled. Why are they reconciled? The main message of Christianity, which is the following.

3. The main message of Christianity I wrote a detailed version here: https://www.vizzed.com/vizzedboard/thread.php?id=14003

But here's the shorter version. You should know John 3:16? "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." That is the main message. Jesus came to die because we sinned against God, and all of us deserve hell, because it would be just for God to send us there, for we sinned against God. He died to save us, and all we need to do is to receive God's gift of salvation. We do not earn it, but it is a gift of God, that is why it is called "grace." "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

You talked about God's love, this is the greatest act of love. He did not need to save us, but He did because He loves us: "but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8) "This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers." (1 John 3:16)

So the question is whether people receive God's gift of salvation, if they don't, they are relying on themselves to earn their way to heaven, which they can't, because they cannot meet that perfect standard from God. Jesus paid it all in full, and He offers eternal life at the cross. That is why John 3:16 has John 3:18 after it that says this: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

One last thing before I go, many of these responses that I read say stuff like "some of my Christian friends said this, some said that" You have to compare what they say to what the Bible says. There are people who think they are Christians, but they are not. Others may be new Christians and may not know certain things about Christianity. And then there are others who might have accidently said the wrong thing or did not think about certain topics which caused them to say the wrong thing (I have plenty of those experiences before). Ultimately, Christians see the Bible as the authoritative Word of God, so everything that is being said must be checked to what the Bible says. Even the Bible warns about this:

"Test everything. Hold on to the good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

You should be like the Bereans that does this faithfully:

"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." (Acts 17:11)

And they do it using scripture:

"All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness," (2 Timothy 3:16)

If you have more questions, please reply.

" I still firmly believe that the Mayan calendar ends in 2012 because they ran out of room on the stone." i had a good laugh at that, made my night!

Personally, i am with rlmathias01 on most of everything, i don't believe in any religion, my only issue with "faith" is proof... no one knows and will never know who actually wrote the bible, or any other religion books, or if the Mayan's where just messing with people, who knows?? No one. And no one will ever know. From a logical stand point, and middle of the road kinda person, I don't believe the world will end by anything but us humans doing it. shoot it has already started with the polar caps melting. I just say live life to the fullest and treat everyone they way you want to be treated, Being a good person is the first step to anything.

Never look down on anybody unless you're helping them up. ~Jesse Jackson

play4fun : I would prefer it if you didn't take over my thread, change the subject, tell me why your opinion is right while the one I presented is wrong, and write a little essay in response to each of my posts. I honestly just stopped reading them because you just rehash the same thing over and over. I get it. You're right. Hundreds of pages of vague text can only be interpreted one way. It makes perfect sense. Knowledge in the days of Christ was so advanced that the ancients' understanding of the world around them blows ours out of the water.

septembern : Please close this. The supposed day of the Rapture has come and gone. Nothing happened.

play4fun : Okay, I just had to reply to your "views" of the Bible. So my reply to your "Children of God" comment, here is what the Bible says about that. In John 3:16 it says: "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life."

Yes we are all sinners, because we are born from sinners, which started with Adam and Eve. BUT, God gave a perfect life for a perfect life. Since God gave his only-begotten Jesus on the torture stake, he whom EXERCISES FAITH in him, will inherit ever lasting life.

Now as for the whole who goes to heaven, well the Bible is very clear on who goes to heaven. In Revelation 14:1 says: "And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads." Here it clearly states that only 144,000 will be ruling in heaven with God. Also in Revelation 7:9 it says: "After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, and there were palm branches in their hands." The great crowd are the ones with the Earthly hope of everlasting life. In the Bible is does NOT say that the Earth will be destroyed. Only that "the righteous themselves will posses the earth and live forever upon it." - Psalms 37:29.

And as for Timothy 3:16 is says: "All scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for discplining in righteousness." Yes God is the only true just and loving judge and only HE has a right to judge. No man can do that. It is not our job to judge anyone. It's God job. I have been raised in reading the Bible in its entirety. I don't pick and choose what I want and try to prove anyone I am right or wrong. The only person who is right in this subject about the Bible is God himself. For it's his written word.

Yeah, I'll close this, because if you want to have a all around rapture debate, I'll let you bump This thread for that purpose, this thread has filled it's purpose and time to close.

Closed by OPs request.