Davideo7: I feel like your input on if rules for tdv are even allowed to be changed and how you feel about things discussed here in general will be needed.

I realized this past tdv that many of the rules that have been standard for years were being called into question several times so I figured having an open discussion would be the best to try and make tdv make more sense and more enjoyable!


classgame : I know I asked you what rules you thought should be changed so I figured I'd summon you so you could discuss it here.

pokemon x : pretty sure you had a suggestion as well.

I have my own suggestions for some new rules, for starters I think 25% of your posts being in Elimination threads should result in a DQ from blue.
As for my other suggestion I found this in a thread from years ago

I think 25% of your posts being shorter than 40 words should be a DQ in blue I know there's some threads where it's hard to hit that but if anything I think it would drive more thought out posts.

Davideo7: Since summon failed above. Edit Rip mine failed too.


If I am remembering correctly this was my suggestion.


Making DQ threads more publicly visible for transparency.

Doing some snooping on the site we could take one of the forums for example this one https://www.vizzed.com/boards/forum.php?id=52
Rename it to something such as "TDV DQ Discussions"
Move it to private forums but leave the visibility open to all but restrict so only site staff+ can post to it.



I noticed looking at this we could set the permissions to 0, 4, and 6.
0 so everyone can see. 4 so site staff+ can post. 6 so only globals and higher can make the DQ thread. If there is a 7 or 8 for say admin or David only I would recommend that instead.


I just feel as if this is highly needed for transparency and so people are more aware what they get DQd for. When it comes to reports though site staff need to remember not to mention who reported somebody so the person that reports doesn't get targeted in retaliation.

SonicOlmstead : The only suggestion i really have for the TDV is giving people a second chance for jerseys after getting DQ'd. Getting DQ'd from a jersey once and not being able to compete again for a whole months seems too harsh. I understand the need for that kind of punishment back when vizzed was much more active, wanting to set an example for what happens to rule breakers back then.

Lets give users a second chance for a jersey, if they get DQ'd again that's it for the month.

I think 25% of your posts being shorter than 40 words should be a DQ in blue

A rule like that will have mixed results. I can see a lot of filler in post trying to get a 40+ word count, which doesn't increase the quality of the post at all.

The quality of post can only really reach the quality of the thread itself. Make a low quality thread, you're only getting low quality post. We already have the 25% rule for specific forums where most of these low quality threads/post reside (e.g. Crazy House, Poll and Questions)

And not everyone can turn a simple post into an essay like EX Palen

I think before a person is DQ for the entire month they should be given a second chance. A lot of times it is unintentional.

I know this rule is put into place to prevent tabbing and spamming. But I would like to see maybe the posting in the last hour be adjusted. This was one rule I was concerned about breaking. At times during the last tour. I got bogged down with severe weather outbreaks. So a lot of my posts came within the last hour. I did not get flagged for it, but I was concerned about this. I think there needs to be more leeway concerning this rule.

yikes I do admit that maybe some of the amount of posts I made could be longer like at least 25-50 words

I'm not sure about the Vizzed VIlle South rules because I found myself posting there more than usual last tour, I do think the strictness should be adjusted there I just wish there was a way I wouldn't have to lose sleep over my lead which is why I'm kind of sitting out of the next tour

also I want the video posting to count again I have so many gaming videos on my channel

Retire the tour de Vizzed with me being the last winner. I feel like it’s a great ending for a great tournament for me, the best user of the site to ever graced on your screens, to give the tournament its adieu. C’est le vie the French would say, and hope it lives on with the legacy of me being the last person to ever won the tournament.

Though more seriously, like the topic above is 99% serious… this is 100%. If you guys don’t think of retiring the competition I would suggest reopening some popular legacy threads that don’t look spammy to help give more opportunities to post since as you’ve seen the dwindling amount of post through the last few TdVs and the same repetitive threads replied. I don’t know or just retire the tour with me being the last winner. Stroke my ego.

Some thoughts from a previous rainbow boi:

1) Strongly dislike the idea of DQing for blue based on post word count. This encourages spam more than it discourages it in my opinion. One of the topics of discussion in the DQ thread last TdV was word padding, and whether or not it should lead to a DQ for yellow. Adding a rule about DQing for a certain percentage of posts being fewer that a set number of words will only make the word padding issue worse. Sometimes you can get your point across in 20 words, and there is nothing wrong with that. Repeating yourself and adding filler to a 20-word post to keep it above the threshold is not good, and that will be the inevitable result. Short posts are not necessarily bad posts. I don't think there's anything wrong with using subjective judgment to decide if a ban for blue is warranted for poor post quality.

2) Institute a hard ban on double posting. I saw it more than I ever have before during the last TdV and it made me cringe. There is almost never a reason for it. If you forgot something, you can edit your post. The only reason I can think of that a double post is ever warranted is to summon someone, but a simple "hey check out what I said in this thread" in a PM or profile comment can resolve that pretty easily. Double post in a thread should be an instant DQ. (Sandwich posting, on the other hand, is mostly fine. Yes I am still salty about my DQ as a newbie in the Summer 2013 TdV.)

3) I don't think we need to make the DQ thread public, but I do think there needs to be communication about it. This can be handled with a PM, though. If a DQ for a certain user is discussed but it is decided to not follow through with it, send a PM letting them know that whatever they were doing was questionable. If a DQ is handed out, that user should definitely be informed why.

4) I agree with supercool and tornadocam about having a more substantial difference between a daily DQ and a monthly DQ. If a user breaks the rules once, DQ them for the day, let them know why (see point 3), and move on. If they break the same rule again, or another rule, then they can get the DQ for the entire month. I think the only time the first DQ should be for the entire month should be egregious situations, such as creating other accounts to like your posts / rate your things for CP, etc.

I reinforce the thought of introducing a daily DQ to give users a chance of redemption and realizing what they did wrong without hampering too much their participation (and to an extent their interest in future competitions, as 6 long months will pass until they get a chance to participate again under the current format). And yes, more transparency about discussing or handing DQs could also be explored even if this daily DQ becomes a reality.

I don't think that a low word count should directly lead to a DQ in Blue. We've come to relate a low word count with spam, and while that's mostly the case it isn't ALWAYS the case. We should stick to consider the quality of the posts over their word count, and apply the DQs based only on that.

I agree that intentional double posting should be an automatic DQ, if your post is the last one in that thread you can always edit it. Sandwich posting, while mostly fine, should also be clarified in which instances it is allowed. In an elimination thread, for example, sandwich posting in the same day doesn't leave much margin for other people to step in. We would need to go deeper into this and set the limits of what's allowed and what not.

Another measure we can introduce is temporarily limit how many posts can users make in certain threads. It's been stated the TdV thread should be limited/excluded/whatever from daily count, for example, but actually we do have the power to limit the posting restrictions in every thread. I'd say we should discuss which (kind of) threads should have those limits, probably even modify the currently existing limits to include more options and apply them only for the duration of the TdV.

Davideo7 : Hoping my summon doesn't fail like those before me, but your opinion in all of this would be welcome

supercool22 : On the other side, I wish I could turn an essay into a summary like other people can do. I guess my talent is basically being the opposite of everybody else xD

I'm responding now to make suggestions based on other people's posts..

SonicOlmstead : Instead of 25% of posts, why not restrict the threads to 1 post per day per user? That would be more work for us. Could we also change that to be a year-round change? If you somehow still get more than 25% of posts in eliminations or equivalent threads, you still get the DQ.

The second thing can be very tricky and would require a huge discussion on whether a post counts as spam or not. Not all posts can be answered in over 40 words without padding. Padding for words just to add words is just as spammy as a 1-word post, in my opinion.
So assuming 25% of posts are less than 40 words, there needs to be a discussion on whether the posts are spammy or if they are quality enough. '
 

supercool22 : I do agree on the first single-day DQ. I think this is more of a flaw in the DQ code itself. It would require David to make a code change. Currently, as far as I am aware, there is no way to change the DQ duration. It's just a button to DQ and then confirm DQ.
 
tornadocam : If the site was active as it used to be, I feel like this rule should change. Back in the day, I think people used to get 50–100 posts a day easily. Due to the low activity and the lower post counts for the day, I think this should stay. I only say this since, most days, I think the highest number of posts was in the low 20 to high 10 area of posts. This can be easily caught up in an hour.
 

becerra95 : I think I mentioned in Discord that people could recreate threads and they would stay open. If new people see a 100+ page thread and then see new posts, they may feel intimidated to post in it or never post because they might check if their response hasn't been said already.
If there are any threads you think should be reopened instead of remade, I can reopen them if others agree on it.
 
classgame : If I am remembering correctly, the rule originally came for Crazy House and Polls & Questions because it was easy to rack up a ton of posts with little to no effort. I think the rule should stay, especially if people want higher-quality posts in the end.
How would you feel if you lost to someone who only posted on Crazy House? It would make me feel like why put in effort in other forums if I can still get ahead in one forum that is way easier to post in.
 
tgags123 : Point 1 I already talked about, so I'm going to start at Point 2.
I agree hugely with the double/sandwich posting. (Mention sandwich because ex palen) 
I know a few examples I saw of people posting twice or more, responding to each person in their thread in separate posts.
They don't need to be in separate posts; instead, they should be all in one post, like I am doing here.
Instead of doing a hard ban, make it a single-day DQ like others have mentioned so it isn't allowed, and then if they continue, make it a DQ for the rest of the month.
 

EX Palen : The only thing I can add to your post is your last thing.
I believe locals+ have this power. I don't know if this can be done while making the thread. Anyway, if you go to edit thread and look for restrictions, we can make threads only be responded to in the following ways:
1 an hour, 1 a day, 1 per 24 hours, and 1 per user
I think it should be a 1 a day option on most of the threads being suggested for it. I say that because I think the 1 per 24 is a legit 1 post per 24 hours, and the 1 a day resets at midnight.

You brought this up in Discord, so I am going to add it here so hopefully others will discuss it.

Restrict staff+ action counts to elite action counts. mainly to make it more fair for the rest of the site.
I think this would have to be manually checked each day, but if a staff+ user doesn't want to participate in TDV but doesn't want to have a chance of being ahead due to their rank, they can self-DQ for the month.

yes it's unfair but I've also lost to people who don't live in the central time zone or have night shifts and therefore are awake at that time and have time on their hands, when at the last hour of the day I can barely stay awake on a work night

pokemon x : The 1 a day option looks like could be used as the standard for many threads out there. However, it would be worth checking the difference with 1 every 24 hours, because if the daily one resets at midnight that can still permit double or sandwich posting under certain circumstances whereas the 24 hours will always give the same margin for others to intervene no matter when you make the post.

About restricting staff actions... The only fair thing would be for David to create a script by which the TdV standings only account up to Elite limits both for Red and Green jerseys. Not sure if it can be done, but I'd find it unfair that I get my CP not awarded just because of a competition I may not even be participating in. I know CP may not be a very important field, but they measure how much does a user contribute and as such we shouldn't penalize the payouts if at all possible. That script should also exclude staff-only actions from counting towards TdV while still awarding CP as usual, so to my eyes it's a very difficult task for David alone (unless he says otherwise).

A manual check would be of no use, in my opinion. Having to recalculate manually the results of each day, finding out where did their CP come from and handing out daily/full DQs to people who might not even be aware of how much they can do... And in the case somebody is DQed, check if the newly promoted scorer is also staff and if they are within limits. It's possible but it's too much of a hassle, and too much to keep up for a whole month.

Mod Edit not relevant

Mod edit: not relevant. All hail king Becky.


Kidding kidding (on the mod edit). I do agree on the double posting. You’ve read my distaste to that and my passive aggressive responses to it during the tour. Sandwich posting is more so unavoidable at times due to the fact how little threads are around that can peak some interests.

Though warnings on being irrelevant on some threads should be enforced. Not going to go to some thread and talk about something so irrelevant to the topic or talk about something so random and not contributing to a thread.

I should say, allow me to be more antagonistic to people during the tour since some admin wanted to give me a warning about me having fun

I would have to say maybe your avg word count in Tdv should be 30 and at lowest 20. If this was already a thing, then that's cool, but I was just saying that because of people making short posts that are fast.

One more thing, I think people should not be able to do more than 90% of their posts in one hour, this would help because than people could not just start posting a bunch at 10:00 PM and pass everyone while they are away. It would be like the whole 11:00 PM thing, you can't just post a bunch at 11:00, so why not in an hour, you can't do 90% of your posts. (Unless you only did 4 posts)

Dauntez : some people have restrictions at times and unable to post freely throughout the day. Plus they do have a similar rule where like 50% of word count can’t be within the last hour.

Though I do agree that I kind of abused the 10 pm time slot at times due to the fact that I work at a night job and during my break I try my best to catch up with posts and words but in return lose time writing the review at that moment (typing it all at Notes on my iPhone before copy pasting so I don’t lose any chunk of what I typed since creating a new post or thread refreshes and sometimes deleted my review… learned that the hard way…). The review is still technically “live” since I’m typing at that moment and time just transferring immediately once I’m done so the game is still fresh on my mind and I don’t like “hoarding” reviews or stock up as means to have an advantage like others done in the past. There’s no pride in that.

As the winner of Tour de Vizzed and the only winner to have only won using a cellular phone…. I can’t put much more input due to the fact that I don’t really use my PC for posting (I suck at keyboard but my text speed is pretty fast) and being on mobile is way different than being on a computer so.

I'm open to changing the TdV rules. Whatever you guys agree on, just let me know.

The only issue I see with the Blue Jersey rule of 25% of your posts being shorter than 40 words is that it could become a time consuming chore to have to monitor this. But if staff are fine with monitoring that, then I'd fine with it.

A forum for the TdV DQ Discussions is a good idea. I support it.


EX Palen : The 2nd chance DQ would require some development, so that'd be something I wouldn't be able to implement for a while. I do like the idea though.

So I apologize that it's taken me so long to get back to this thread I wanted to wait a bit to see if anyone else had anything and then I truthfully forgot

So I'll be posting the things that I think most people seemed to agree on and then how the rules should read next tdv and then people can suggest if I missed anything or worded it poorly

I know it's been discussed as a possibility and while I won't complain if we decide to do it I do wonder if adding a public dq discussion would be for the best compared to just doing a better job communicating my reasoning being I feel like people get stressed when confronted anyway and start acting out more often then they take it to heart and I feel like if everyone could see the discussion people would start panicking when there name comes up and either self destruct or possibly worse yet stop competing at all. As I said before though if everyone else is for it then we can make a public one.

As for the rules I think should be added
-One post per user a day in a thread (this just needs to be changed in the threads not added to the rules)
-Double posting should be banned in tdv

While I agree staff has an unfair advantage in green I don't think the solution is making staff keep track of all their actions each day to make sure to not pass elite numbers so for me it falls as another rule change that like the 2nd chance after a dq where it'd have to be implemented somehow by David.
I'm iffy on sandwich posting getting added cause I feel like how okay we are with it heavily depends on activity and is too reliant on everyone for it to be a rule that can be clearly stated however I agree double posting has no place.
Already been a rule for a bit now but I wanna include in the tdv rule section the rule on finishing a game to review it since I don't think a warning is needed if your that desperate to make reviews to get ahead. Also wanted to add something about post quality in the rules so someone can't complain that it's not in the rules in the future.

With all that being said here's how I would have the tdv rules laid out next tdv




Tour de Vizzed Rules:

You'll be DQ'd if:
-More than 25% of your daily posts are made in one of the following forums: Crazy House, Vizzed Market, Polls and Questions, Video Game Craziness, Newbie Forum (unless posts are made in your own thread then it's 50%)
-You copy content from other websites or other posts
-You use the "tabbing" technique to make a bunch of posts in a short amount of time
-You're caught cheating or unfairly earning Contribution Points
-You're found to be reviewing games that you have not finished
-You post twice in a row on a thread
-Your posts are found to be below site standard to unfairly gain points or are completely off topic
-More than 25% of your daily posts are made in the same thread (your own thread and staff threads are an exception)
-If 50% or more of your daily words are posted in the final hour of the day
-Staff members are not allowed to feature their own reviews during the Tour de Vizzed

Additionally:
If you get DQ'd just once from a Jersey, you can no longer get points for that Jersey for the rest of the month. We will be very strict from now on with the Tour de Vizzed. Only CP actions which you earned CP off of count toward the Green Jersey.

If you get DQ'd from too many Jerseys in too many TdV competitions, you'll be DQ'd from the TdV forever. Also, if you get DQ'd from a single Jersey in too many competitions, you'll be DQ'd from that specific Jersey forever.

Also, if 50% or more of your daily words are posted in the final hour of the day, you'll be DQ'd from the Yellow Jersey. Too many users have waited until the end of the day to submit a bunch of reviews to the site and that's unfair to users competing

I think there should be another rule

Acknowledging that I’m the only TdV winner to use only a phone, no desktop or laptop used at all during that month. January I’ll be using console to win.

In all seriousness, the “post are below site’s standards” rule does include posts that don’t have any relevance to the thread itself correct?

Is anyone having trouble getting a network error everytime trying to start up a game? on any of the emulators?

SonicOlmstead : I know there is the whole curiosity killed the cat thing but couldn't people just not read the DQ discussion threads if they think reading it will make things worse for themselves?
I feel like if people did start using that those threads we should edit out their posts and tell them they need to PM if they have any thoughts on the discussions.

With the restrictions on assuming David can't get the extra stuff coded in I do think the rules you have listed are pretty good.


becerra95 : I haven't talked to Sonic about this but I am going to assume yes.


huahsa : Hey this isn't really the place to talk about this so I commented on your profile. If you want PM me and I will try to take a look at whatever games you are having issues on. I personally haven't had any.