What are your thoughts on liking/dating/marrying the same sex just being love, nothing to be ashamed about. I personally think Love is love and no one should be judged on anything of their character, only on their personality.

Love is love, in any shape or form. If you like the same gender, I say go for it. It's your life, don't let society live it for you!

SadSecrets :
ThePhaze :

What if they wanted to marry their pet?

Or a car?

Would you say to someone who wants to marry a monkey "love is love"?

Love is a precious gift, but should it go unbridled? Would we even be civilized if we just let loose and love whatever we wished? Would it be considered wise for a 13 year old child to sleep with a 12 year old girl because love is love? Surly we should use our head, and not just our heart.

I have spoken to people who have had same sex, and a lot of people misunderstand it. It is about love to a certain degree, but it is also about satisfying the sex drive without having to establish a relationship with a woman and go through all that stuff. So to speak, it can be hard to find the right gal, but if you can find a guy that wants sex as much as you do, then you don't have to worry about establishing a relationship with a woman, or worry about her getting pregnant.

Granted people are bisexual, homosexual, for different reasons.

I don't mean to be mean to people, and I honestly want to help homo/bisexuals. But I cannot pretend that it is normal when it is not.
What I don't get is why people are like "Oh, you're gay? That's okay, I'll accept you". But saying that does not remove the pain that they go to. Even recently on Televisoin on the Survivor show, the gay guy admitted that it was a stuggle, or burden. Can't remember which he called it. Would you tell someone who is sick, that you accept them the way that they are? Would you tell them that they are normal? No,  If you cared about a sick person, you would tell them "Don't worry, you'll get better." 

That's what we need to do to gay people. We need to stop putting up with the pain, and rather, put and end to it. We need to heal them, not just let them drive themselves into a brick wall. We need to do what's right, not what's easy.There are two kinds of doctors, one quarantines his patients and tells them, "You're going to be like this the rest of your life, so, we'll just accept you for what you are, and I'll quarantine you. The other doctor says "Here, this medicine will heal you" What kind of doctor will you guys be? The one who accepts? Or the one who heals?

I say that Love is Love in some situations is not true. Though if you find somebody who loves you and you love them back I say go for it! Although if they start abusing you or making you feel bad.. makes you cry etc then that brings me back to what I said in my first sentence. "Love is Love in some situations is not true".




Bintsy<33

Sword legion : We are talking about love between two consenting people, here. Comparing that to bestiality is nonsense. Also, insinuating that the only reason gay people are attracted to one another is for sex is just ignorant. This thread is talking about love, not sex.

As a bisexual, I have to say that the feelings of emotional attachment, trust and attraction that lead to love, are the same whether I'm feeling it for a man or a woman. I agree with OP, love is love, and we should celebrate and cherish these feelings between people instead of trying to squash them. The world needs more love.

Yeah I agree with love is love for any sexual orientation, comparing bi sexual or gay relationships to beastiality  is down righted retarded mainly for the fact its a human relationship not an animal-human relationship.

Well I can't take any sides here .. I am stright ... loved a bisexual ( she was a girl not a guy ) ... so bashing would be hypcritical of me . I'm also a Christian so my fmaily .... surroundings ... taught me that Men love Womaen And Women Love men . But even if I HADN'T grown up as a Christian I think I'd still like girls . But you HAVE to have sympathy for those guys and gals out there . SOME have been abused by the oppsite sex , so the hell are they supposed to do ? Go back for more ? Humans need someone to love .. THATS normal ... but if you feel it for the same gender ... well thats UR choice . Is it wrong ? I can't Judge .. God Judges.. I'm not God so I don't know what he thinks . I can't judge anyone ... not for how they look , how they speak , or who they love . But I CAN treat them like humans .... accept ? Yeah to some extent ..... 


What that second or third poster siad made snese .. but again .... not ALL of them do that to get away from pregnancy ... and if they do .. then thats not love ... thats disgusting . The thing they do is given to us as a gift .. and should be done by two people who LOVE each other .. not who want to shrug responsinlities HAVE A NICE DAY !!

I have very strong feelings about this topic, because although I personally am straight, I have a lot of gay friends. I think its sort of sad that people can't accept love in all of its forms. Gay people should have the right to be the way they are and love whoever the heck they want! I can't believe people are picked on and discriminated against just for something like being who they are and liking who they like! I find it sort of ignorant to think that it really makes a difference. I mean, come on! The only difference really that I can see being even remotely arguable is the one where people argue that they can't have kids, but why should that matter? Gay couples can adopt and be just as loving or even better parents than straight ones, and our human population is reaching its carrying capacity anyway. My friends are just as human as any straight person is, so why shouldn't they be treated with just as much humanity? I say, be who you are, as long as it isn't hurting anyone, no matter your gender, color, religion, sexuality, or however else people divide us up!
Nice thread.

Love is love, but lets not make every kind of love the same kind of love. The love of a parent toward a child is not the same as the love of the husband and wife toward each other.

I do not deny that men can find men sexually attractive, that women can find women sexually attractive, or that people truly desire same-sex sexual activity.

I deny that they can have a marriage.

The law can call "marriage" living together for 6 months if it wants to, but lets be honest, a marriage is a special connection between people. What I specifically deny for same sex couples is that special something.

Yes, they are sexually attracted. Yes, they want that special something between each other. Yes, they think there is that special something between themselves and that significant other. It does not exist.

Most comments to this are "You are not them and you're not even gay, you can't judge that", "You don't know how they feel", or something similar. They are correct statements, but not correct conclusions. The judgment is not based on me being in the specific relationship, me being gay, or any feelings (yes, any) they may have. The judgment is made on the common knowledge of  "male" and "female".

I've already argued this subject to death on other threads, but I'll give a quick summary.

Basically, brain chemicals fire during human interaction. Regardless of sexual preference, male-male, male-female, and female-female interactions all are different. Biologically, male-male and female-female relationships (not necessary sexual) are inherently different than male-female (also not necessarily sexual).

Also, animals have had the species-specific males and females evolving side by side for quite a while now. Literally, due to evolution, the two genders naturally compliment each other. We are not built to have male-male or female-female relationships. We're not built for polygamy either. It's just how our species is.

Final words:

While I am a straight 22 year old, my house mate is a gay 65 year old architect/interior designer who welcomes all of my questions. According to him, the "divorce" rate of his gay friends is through the roof. Rarely is there a couple who lasts 2 years. He would love a partner that would fill that gap of love in his life, but he has concluded that there is no guy that can actually fill that spot. While he doesn't think that it is universal, he does say that is the case in nearly everyone. I go farther and say that those that do have long lasting relationships have just kinda forced it to work and have convinced themselves that's how it's supposed to go. My house mate's reply to this is, "Maybe..."

I'll take on three at a time. And no internet links. You can never trust anything on the internet, plus I have small children using this computor. and I don't want anything to happen to them.

Okay.


Annette :

I can't just take a bisexual, lesbian, or gay's word for it when they say that they really do love someone. They may just be saying that to make themselves look better. But I'm not ruling it out entirely either I said:

"Granted people are bisexual, homosexual, for different reasons"

But I don't want people to just jump on the idea that they are all after the same love that straight people are.

Love could be one of those reasons. But not always.

I didn't say that it's not about love, but I do challenge the idea that it's always about love. I know someone who did it just to satisfy his sex drive. And besides, have people forgotten how powerful the sex drive was when they were 13? it may have been about love when we were young, but romantic love is also triggered by the sex drive. 

I wouldn't surprise me if those who wanted to marry their pet would argue "Oh, but I love my pet" Perhaps even sincerely. But even love is no excuse to just up and do something. I'll ask again, should a 13 year old boy sleep with a 13 year old girl because love is love? Male sex organs were only meant for female sex organs and nothing else. Female sex organs were meant for male sex organs and nothing else. Love is no excuse 
for such actions.

The whole idea the the world needs more love is part of the globalists agenda. But you cannot just love everyone, some people don't care how much love you have, they will still try to kill you. The world needs more brains, and less feel good emotional ideas that ignore circumstances.


PokefanKala :


"I think its sort of sad that people can't accept love in all of its forms"

How about a 13 year old boy who want's to sleep with a 10 year old. . . and calls it love?


"I can't believe people are picked on and discriminated against just for something like being who they are and liking who they like"

Since when does being gay make you who you are? I somewhat agree that we shouldn't pick on those people, cause they have issues just like the rest of us have issues, granted they are kindof severe. But we should uphold such behavior as something great either when it is not. how is that being gay makes someone who they are? They are using Sex organs in way that they were never intended by nature, by science, or by God. It is perversion. 

"I find it sort of ignorant to think that it really makes a difference"

Uh, no offense but they're completely backwards in their sexuality, how much polar to normality can you get?

"The only difference really that I can see being even remotely arguable is the one where people argue that they can't have kids, but why should that matter?"

Evolution and natural selection, the ultimate test of a given species would eliminate them withing one generation.

"Gay couples can adopt and be just as loving or even better parents than straight ones"

I would argue against that point because nature, science, and evolution, (evolution, can apparently create and entire ecosystem like Earth on it's own) has things set out so that children are raised by their parents. 


"and our human population is reaching its carrying capacity anyway."

If you don't want to provide a reference for this because you heard in on television or something then I won't call you out on it.  I heard that if you took every person in the world and put them in Jacksonvil Florida then you would be able to fill the city limits twice! And everyone would have enough room to spin their arms around in a circle. I think that the whole overpopulation thing is just propoganda to give the government more control, but I don't want to get into a whole nother subject.

"I say, be who you are, as long as it isn't hurting anyone, no matter your gender, color, religion, sexuality, or however else people divide us up"

How about druggies?  Or people who have sex with animals? Should a person on drugs say that they just want to be who they are and that drugs are a part of their identity?

Ok I am both Christian and republican, but I do not have a problem with gay marriage. I do not like it, but I do not have a problem with it. I am just going to leave it at that and walk away from this debate.

Sword legion : I respect you dear bro . You don't back down do you ? Persistence I respect that .. Anywho you said in ur first post that there are two kinds of doctors .. ones so say " You'll have to live with this " and ones who say " I'll get you the cure " . ... has ther ever been a pandemic or epidemic of a disease that died off on its own without treatment ? That stopped affecting people ? That just ... went away ? I need you to answer that question first ..... I don't know the answer :3 



PokefanKayla : I respect you . You stand up for what you believe in . And I like ur view on this . About treating humans as humans regardless of sexual , racial or whatever elseial orientation . And it makes sense you would think that . I would too ... but I was groown by Christians .. you know THEIR veiw on that ... they judge ..... by the bible ... But I don't judge MAINLY because I HATE telling other persons that ACCORDING TO THE RULES YOU ARE WRONG .. WORNG !!!! so I just say " God's my judge .... so he'll judge for me . 

Txgangsta : #1 . ice name #2 I rspect you .. this is the THRID time ur doing this ? Impressive ... and you ain't backing down . ... Ok .. I LOVE science .. heck .. anythime I do something extra ordinary or solve a problem I say to myslef ... SCIENCE !!!!! But  am not Scientist yet ... so Imo have to take ur word for it . If Scince did notintend for it to be this way .... Humans we not meant to fly ... built ariplanes .. humans were not meant to breathe underwater ... Submarines . ... Some people thought humans we not meant to be ... dark skinned .. Yeah ... I'm dark skinned .. and still living ... Some though cuz of SCIENCE we we not pefect or proper .. they were wrong ... and they failed ...... SCIENCE can be misleading .. and when it is .... it shows it self to be nonesense ... it doesn't pull through .. So if Science never wanted us to be like this ... we'll see ... eventually . As for God .... well he judges ... so if they we NOT meant to be ... then He'll take care of that .. I gots no worries ... Which is why I just treat people as people knowing that " hey ... I can only say they are human and help them ... .. t" I don't label .




For all those who I summoned and those who posted .. for those who made the thread ... 



HAVE A NICE DAY !!! AND GOD BLESS YOU !!!! ~ Exclamation point :3

Sword legion : With that logic, how can anyone take anyone's word for it that they are in a relationship just for sex? How can we take your word for it that if you marry someone in the future, it isn't just for sex? That holds 100% no logic other than because you aren't attracted to a man, you can't trust that any other man could be on the basis of love. With that logic, if you are not attracted to 400 pound women because morbid obesity is just not attracted to you, then you can't trust that any man would be in a relationship with a 400 pound woman without it being about sex and not love. 

And as Annette said, your comparisons are offensive. Not because it is against homosexuality, but because you put them on the same level as a pet or inanimate object. With that statement, you make it clear that you see homosexuals as less than human. So unless you at the VERY LEAST think they should still be seen as equal human beings, don't use that argument. 

But if you really want to know why it is different, here. Consent. You can't get consent from an inanimate object. As for against your pets, it is the same thing. You cannot have the consent of a pet for that kind of relationship. There is no legal consent in this. But again, it is sick to make the claim that a human being should be subject to a law based on how it applies to animals. They are humans, not animals. Don't treat them as animals. It is sick.

As for your 13 year old kids thing, we again have the laws of consent ADULTS. There are legitimate reasons why kids can't drink, get a driver's license, legally own a gun, smoke, etc. There are things in life that come with being an adult. When you are at the age to where you are considered mature enough to be responsible for your own decisions, you can do those things. But even then, a lot of 'adults' aren't ready for it. Sex is no different in alcohol in that you need to be an adult for the sake of safety. In all honesty, I find that argument almost as sick as the animal argument. Just because two equal consenting adults are different than you, then they must be treated as 13 year old kids. 

As for your argument that male sex organs are meant for female sex organs and nothing else. In that case, everyone who has ever masturbated is an abomination because they are using something other than the other sex organs on their own.

rcarter2 :

Uhh, your post is kinda confusing.

"With that logic, how can anyone take anyone's word for it that they are in a relationship just for sex?"

Look at the people and watch their actions. That is how you make the following assumption about me right? I have had one close friend who was bi admit that at least one relationship he was in was about sex. In another relationship he wanted love, but the other guy was just pushing for sex. Since we are good friends I doubt that he would lie to me. Have you ever spoken to a bisexual or homosexual that gave you the idea that it's always about love? What about their high divorce rate? They could very easily lie to us to make them look better. I know that it can be about love, but it can also just be about sex. I said that in the second post. There are some heavy homosexuals who party all night long, using cocaine as an agent to keep them up all night and participating in same sex. I'm not saying that they are all like that, but not all Homosexuals are doing it for love! That is what I am trying to point out.

"As for your 13 year old kids thing, we again have the laws of consent ADULTS"

This as well as a few of my other attacks were first and formost directed at their original targeted statements. The 13 year old thing was meant to show that you cannot just pass stuff off as "Love is love and let love be".

"You can't get consent from an inanimate object"

I don't care. We hit nails on the head every day. They don't complain. Although a door will creak and whine sometimes if you open it and it needs oil.

"As for against your pets, it is the same thing"

I don't care about that either. You could eat certain ones without their consent. In fact, some animals don't even get one another's consent before mating with them, they just do it.

"As for your argument that male sex organs are meant for female sex organs and nothing else. In that case, everyone who has ever masturbated is an abomination because they are using something other than the other sex organs on their own"

I don't quite get what you mean, you worded it kinda weird. But that is only one point of my argument. I'm not so sure that that's a good idea either.


What is your base for saying that gay sex is okay rcarter?

Sword legion :  "Just look at people and their actions". They way you are doing it is a type of general profiling, which is making specific prejudice for specific groups. You have had ONE.... repeat, ONE...... friend who was bi. That ONE friend admitted to having a relationship based on sex. That one person that he/she dated did the same thing. So because you personally have had this one bisexual friend, you now know the majority of all homosexual couples and what they want in life? You ask if I have ever spoken to bisexual or homosexual that gave me the idea that it is always about love? Yes, I have. I have been highly involved in theatre since my freshman year of college and am a theatre teacher/director now. People who are gay or bisexual in theatre typically are not ashamed or hiding. I have more homosexual and bisexual friends than I can even think of off the top of my head. Yes, some aren't always in relations for love. But the majority of them want to be in a loving relationship just as I do with my wife. But I see absolutely no higher percentage in the gay and bisexual couples who have had casual sex than heterosexuals I know. If anything, my strait guy friends who are single are usually looking for 'a good time' more than my gay and bisexual friends. But my experience and your experience is just here say and doesn't really matter. What matters is that you think that because some (one) that you know have had relationships not for love, that means that we are safe assuming the majority are and therefore assume it is just wrong overall. Well here is the thing. Heterosexuals are just as bad at the casual sex aspect whether you want to believe it or not. If you want to say that a sexual orientation is wrong based on the ones who have had sex for casual purposes rather than love, then heterosexuality is just as wrong. By saying we should stereotype the whole group based off of the some live, you are just another profiler.

"There are some heavy homosexuals who party all night long, using cocaine as an agent to keep them up all night and participating in same sex". Well guess what. There are some heavy heterosexuals who party all night long, using cocaine as an agent to keep them up all night and participating in 'different sex'. Heterosexuals are just as guilty. Deny it all you want, but they are. But I know you are going to claim that it is higher in homosexuals, but I will dismiss it because you will not come up with any credible source to back that up. So again, you are ignoring the heterosexuals doing it but condemning the homosexuals who do it.

"I don't care". Worst argument ever.

"What about their high divorce rate?"
Belgium: 17% divorce rate for homosexual marriages, 34% in heterosexuals
Netherlands: 7% divorce rate for homosexual marriages, 36% in heterosexual couples
United Kingdoms: slightly less than 1% divorce rate for homosexual marriages, 47% in heterosexual couples
Denmark: 14% divorce rate for homosexual male couples and 23% in female couples, 43% in heterosexual couples
United States: (for the states that recognize homosexual marriage) 1.1% per year divorce rate for homosexuals, 2.3% per year divorce rate for heterosexuals

So yeah. What about their high divorce rate? The ones who actually get married tend to have more lasting relationships than the heterosexual side.

"I know that it can be about love, but it can also just be about sex"
Heterosexuality is NO DIFFERENT. So why aren't you ostracizing heterosexuality?

"The 13 year old thing was meant to show that you cannot just pass stuff off as 'Love is love and let love be love' ".
It doesn't change the fact that your example puts homosexual ADULTS on the same level as 13 year old kids. If you don't really think that we should consider homosexuals 13 year old kids, don't use that example. Otherwise you are just throwing around inapplicable comparisons.

"We hit nails on the head every day. They don't complain. Although a door will creak and whine sometimes if you open it and it needs oil."
Again, that example is saying that homosexuals are not only less than human, but no higher than non living objects. That is a disgusting argument.

"You could eat certain ones without their consent"
So eating them for food should be on the same legality as having sex with them. Great argument.......

"In fact, some animals don'e even get one another's consent before mating with them, they just do it"
Is it illegal for animals to mate with each other without consent? No. How does that argument even remotely apply to what humans do?

One thing that I find great is how you completely ignored the argument that when you use the whole 'marry your pet' thing, you are putting human beings on the same level as animals. Ever watch a movie or read a book that involved how slaves were treated? They were often seen as nothing than pets for labor. I would hope your reaction to that would be 'they are not animals. They are human beings and deserve to be treated as such". If that is what you believe, how is it not hypocritical when you say that homosexuality is really no different than having sex with animals? That is an evil and utterly sick thing to say. Are you that blinded by your ethnocentrism that you don't see that you are saying being homosexual makes you less than human? You are preaching that homosexuals are comparable to pets. Hail Fred Phelps.

Sword legion : All right, sorry this took a while, but I write LONG answers. Please don't take any of these as offensive. They are only meant to be my opinions. I will put my first comments in italics, your responses in bold, and the new stuff regular.



"I think it’s sort of sad that people can't accept love in all of its forms"

How about a 13 year old boy who want's to sleep with a 10 year old. . . and calls it love?

Okay, maybe not ALL of its forms. I’m afraid I didn’t explain myself well enough. Obviously things like adults dating children should never happen, or relationships that get too serious at a very young age like you described, or bestiality, as I see you’ve also previously described. I meant non-harmful relationships with other humans. Sorry if that was unclear. I’ll admit that there are some boundaries in love, but I fail to see how a gay relationship is equitable to any of those other things afore mentioned. I don’t think it’s the same thing when children are in relationships like this as it is when two people of an appropriate age, regardless of ethnicity, sexuality, or whatever other biological differences you want to throw in there are having a safe, consenting relationship.


"I can't believe people are picked on and discriminated against just for something like being who they are and liking who they like"

Since when does being gay make you who you are? I somewhat agree that we shouldn't pick on those people, cause they have issues just like the rest of us have issues, granted they are kindof severe. But we should uphold such behavior as something great either when it is not. how is that being gay makes someone who they are? They are using Sex organs in way that they were never intended by nature, by science, or by God. It is perversion.

I don’t believe that this thread is meant to only talk about the sexual aspects of being gay, although granted that is a part of it. I think people’s preferences for love as in what they want in the relationship itself (which is not always nothing but sex) was the intended target for this discussion, am I right? But anyway, I think everything about you helps contribute to who you are. Being gay isn’t the only thing that makes them who they are, obviously, but it is part of it. Your sexuality does dictate a lot of your experiences in this world, including some things it really shouldn’t reach. I do believe that what you want in love is important to influencing your identity.
You seem to believe that being homosexual is a curable disease, am I right? Sorry, but it’s actually not. It is set at birth, and cannot be changed. It is not a choice. It is not being “sick.” It is literally their biological identity in their DNA. According to studies, gay men tend to have brains that are similar to straight women, and lesbians have brains similar to straight men, and twins, who share the same DNA, are a lot more likely to share the same sexuality. I’m not going to go into all of the other complexities I found in the study I just looked up here, but feel free to look up what scientifically makes somebody gay if you wish. I don’t think they have conclusive results yet, but there is definitely something genetic going on. I also have heard from one of my gay friends that he actually tried to deny the fact that he was gay for a while, hoping he was straight or at least bisexual. These people (or at least most of them) are not just making a random decision like “Hey, I feel like I want to be gay for a while!” That would not be very smart, for one thing, considering how they’re treated by others for it. This is naturally who they are attracted to. They cannot help their sexuality any more than you can, and it is not a disease. It is just as programmed into them as gender or skin color is. It is not perversion. It is science.
Also, I’m sorry, but people do all kinds of things that were not intended by nature all the time. I’m honestly a bit of an innocent, and I’d rather not talk about sex and all its weird grossness in detail here, so I’m afraid my examples will be rather weak, but technically the reason we are supposed to have sex is just to have babies. Do people only do it to have babies? I don’t think so. Is it always taking place in the correct area for this even? No. I’m sorry, but I guess people are not held within a specific mold for only doing “what nature intended.” I mean, this more mature area is honestly very shaky for me, (I try not to think about that stuff), but science is not, and it’s always changing, which is one of the things that make it so fascinating. Our adaptability and our ability to try new things are some of the main reasons our species is still around, and is doing so well today.

"I find it sort of ignorant to think that it really makes a difference"

Uh, no offense but they're completely backwards in their sexuality, how much polar to normality can you get?

Okay, once again, maybe I didn’t explain this well enough, but I’m afraid that I may write an awful lot here, because frankly seeing the word “normality” used as an argument did not make me very happy. I will openly admit that trying to define what “normal” is is a very upsetting concept to me, because I don’t believe that we should even have such a concept for most things, because it suggests that anything different from this supposed “normal” is inherently wrong. (Obviously I am not referring to medical problems or dangerous behaviors, or anything like that here. I mean things that we cannot help which are a part of our identity.) Obviously, homosexuals are the minority, but just because somebody is different from you, does that make it wrong? What I meant in the quoted statement was, is dating someone of your same gender actually doing any actual harm to anybody? Is there any reason, other than the fact that it is different from how you are, that being gay does any actual, provable harm? I don’t see why humans are obsessed with this idealistic vision of “normalcy.” A majority of people aren’t left-handed. Should we discriminate against left-handed people? I’m sorry, but this is flawed logic. How do you even define this supposed vision of “normal”? Is there one perfect person we are all supposed to be clones of or something? I have an internal rotation to my hips, and most people don’t. Should I be subject to hate crimes? Should I be bullied until I want to kill myself? Should I be given less rights, and treated like a second class citizen, just because I am different and therefore “abnormal”? Having an internal rotation to my hips is not dangerous to me, it is not dangerous to you, and it is not dangerous to anybody. I was born this way, I cannot help it, and it’s just the way I am, even if it is technically “backwards” to how people usually are. Homosexuality is no different in these aspects. It doesn’t harm anyone, and they were born like that. Does either of these differences merit discrimination, less rights, hate crimes, bullying, or any of the other stupidity directed at homosexuals? I do not believe so. Actually, thank you for asking this question, though. I personally believe that it is mainly humanity’s flawed approach to anything surprising or different that makes homosexuals, or many other types of people, so discriminated against in the first place. Most people simply can’t abide anything different because it confuses them and they are scared of things that they have trouble understanding. I think a lot of this even happens subconsciously, it is so ingrained into our species. For example, I am very different from most people because I am gifted and introverted, and I prefer intellectual pursuits over social interaction. Because this is different and “abnormal” to most of my peers, I am shunned, bullied, ridiculed, and isolated. I have been forced to come to accept that because I am different, it will be impossible for me to ever feel fully accepted in my world. I sympathize deeply with the people who are targeted for their sexuality, because I know what it’s like to be an outsider. It is absolutely not okay for people to be made to feel like this, whatever the reason. I’m sorry, but it’s just wrong to alienate a person because of a trait they were born with and can lie about, but never change. It’s unbelievably ridiculous to me that we all can’t love and accept each other, however impossible it would be to actually find a way to make everyone more open-minded.


"The only difference really that I can see being even remotely arguable is the one where people argue that they can't have kids, but why should that matter?"

Evolution and natural selection, the ultimate test of a given species would eliminate them withing one generation.

This is true, but I am not arguing that the ideal form for our species is to be one that is entirely homosexual. I am only pointing out that having some homosexual people in the population is not a problem, because we also have heterosexual people in our population, who can reproduce, and not every couple is needed to. In this society, homosexuality will not spell the end of the world, but it may grant new homes to children who were given up by their biological parents, which I think is great. No, we couldn’t have an entire homosexual species, but the point is that they aren’t a separate species. They are humans. They have passed natural selection well enough already. The fantastic thing about the human race on an evolutionary level is its ability to adapt, and there is no reason that humans can’t have adapted to their more flexible environment which can contain both homo and heterosexual individuals due to its tremendous population, thus allowing them to ascend this general rule, because we are not just individuals; we are also a part of something more, all members of the same species, ultimately fighting to learn and survive in our amazing, wondrous world.
Also, if the ability to reproduce is the final test, should we also be discriminating against infertile couples or couples who don’t want to have children? That is what this flawed track of thought implies we do. I know that natural selection would obviously choose reproducing couples, but it is not the thing that should dictate human rights. I don’t think that you’re applying this example correctly. Sorry.

"Gay couples can adopt and be just as loving or even better parents than straight ones"

I would argue against that point because nature, science, and evolution, (evolution, can apparently create and entire ecosystem like Earth on it's own) has things set out so that children are raised by their parents.

Actually, that is not necessarily true. Some biological parents are not adept at parenting and some of them are not ready or willing to raise their own children, and put them up for adoption. In these cases, it is much better for them to be adopted by a new family, who will love and care for them. One of my best friends was adopted from China, and even though her parents are not her birth parents, she and her brother (who was adopted from Korea), are in a lovely family, with two very loving, able parents. Yes, she has straight adoptive parents, but I think the same principle would apply if the parents were gay. If someone sets out to adopt, they obviously want children, which shows you already that they will be at least somewhat interested in parenting, which is more than can be said of some couples. Gay parents have the same capacity for love as straight parents do.
I don’t understand how you think evolution backs this up. Citing “nature, science, and evolution” with no explanation is not very specific. I know what these things are, obviously, but you have no commentary to connect your example to your claim, as you could benefit from when proving a thesis. Even penguins sometimes adopt the children of other penguins. Adoption is not unnatural. We are supposedly supposed to have natural feelings of love towards our children triggered by several factors, but that doesn’t make biological parents always the best for the child. Sometimes people just can’t handle being parents. Some people are just more nurturing by nature than others, and gay people can be very nurturing too. It really depends on the ability and personality of the individual more than the sexuality of the individual. I’m not saying homosexuals are always better, just that they have an equal chance.


"and our human population is reaching its carrying capacity anyway."

If you don't want to provide a reference for this because you heard in on television or something then I won't call you out on it. I heard that if you took every person in the world and put them in Jacksonvil Florida then you would be able to fill the city limits twice! And everyone would have enough room to spin their arms around in a circle. I think that the whole overpopulation thing is just propoganda to give the government more control, but I don't want to get into a whole nother subject.

I’m sorry that I did not provide a reference for this. I was trying to be concise. I learned about how our population was meeting its carrying capacity in my college equivalent AP Human Geography class last year, (although instead of doing the AP test, I did this alternate program where I got the grade I received in the high school class put in as college credit at a local college, but I digress,) which was devoted entirely to teaching us about the population make-up and distribution of the world. (If you were wondering, I got an A.) So, yeah. Official college equivalent course, or something you heard somewhere, which, by the way, was not sourced either…? Look up some population pyramids or population studies, watch documentaries on the subject, or read a textbook. Just do your research and you will see! It is a proven fact that the concentration of people in many areas of the world is getting to be way too high. It is not a matter of simply land either, as you are suggesting, but also the resources needed to sustain our population when compared to the measured rate of growth, and the amount of land that is actually inhabitable or arable. Our population is increasing exponentially, which means, to put it simply, that some of our resources may replenish themselves, but our population is getting bigger at a WAY faster rate than they can be replaced. You can also look up exponential population growth, (google it, read a book, I don’t care) if you want to know more. But anyway, I’m pretty sure that this has, in fact, been proven. There is a reason, (other than just the rich countries being pigs, which is also a big part of it,) that people are starving out there. There will eventually not be enough farmland, enough forests for wood, or enough anything if we keep up our current rate of exponential population growth and do not come up with new technologies to combat this. This is why they began their family planning program in China where families could only have one child. This is why people in India are being taught how to use birth control methods by helpful organizations. It is not just a myth. I don’t know what conspiracy theory you’ve been buying into, but there have been many studies on the world’s population and the resources needed to maintain it, and the fact is, our population is going up at a rate that is too high for our available resources. A simplified although slightly outdated model of this is the Malthusian model for population growth. There are critics of this model, who say that because of our newer innovations in invention and science we will adapt in time to our loss of resources, beat science, and find new things to survive off of, and that may prove to be true, but I just mean this as a general example, and eventually, new technology or not, if we don’t stop growing there is a sort of eventual theoretical roof on our possible population. I wish I was in that class more recently, so I could think of more examples, because I actually don’t have time to relearn an entire course right now, fun as it was. (It was really, really, painfully boring.) Like you said, though, this is a discussion for another time, if at all.
I’m not suggesting that homosexuality is the answer to population growth. I’m just saying that we’re not at a loss for people right now. We don’t need to reproduce like rabbits, and people should be able to be in relationships without having children without endangering our race’s survival. Also, as I said before, even some straight couples cannot or do not produce any children. Should they be banned from marriage?

"I say, be who you are, as long as it isn't hurting anyone, no matter your gender, color, religion, sexuality, or however else people divide us up"

"How about druggies? Or people who have sex with animals? Should a person on drugs say that they just want to be who they are and that drugs are a part of their identity?"

This is an easy one to answer. I don’t believe you actually read the words you quoted. I clearly stated “AS LONG AS IT ISN’T HURTING ANYONE.” Druggies are unfortunately hurting themselves, and they sometimes pull other people into their dangerous activities as well, and I don’t believe that bestiality falls under that umbrella of people simply innocently being who they are either. If I were you, I wouldn’t bring up bestiality as an example. I’m not going to make a big deal of it, obviously, and I understand that you’re only using it as an example, but there are some people who get very, very offended that their human relationships are being compared to marrying or having sex with animals. Gay couples are made up of two humans, even if some people refuse to treat them as such.

Anyway, this was an interesting debate. It was quite educational for me to look at this matter using your questions and considering your perspective, and although I retain my previous belief, thank you for sharing your opinion. Please remember that this also is just my opinion, and I really don’t mean any offense by any of it, so if for some stupid reason I come off wrong here, I apologize profusely. Feel free to respond if you have any additional questions.

Mr. Zed : Thank you. I respect your opinion as well. It's great that even though you are religious you give people a chance and listen to what they have to say! A lot of people don't have that kind of compassion for others. I should also have to think that you're right that if there was a God, he'd be able to decide on the issue himself. Because I'm a theatre nerd, I have a lot of gay friends, so it's always nice to hear people being accepting despite their personal opinions on the matter.

Well, I'll just say all I have to say on the matter. Well, me, being a straight, Christian, person. Love is love. Yes, but well, there's a difference between what's acceptable, and what isn't, by my beliefs and standards. I mean, we can all agree that someone being attracted to an animal, or an adult in love with a child is messed up right? Since this is a question of sexuality, I'll just say it, I don't agree with homosexuality, BUT I don't hate those who are. I dislike individuals based on their actions (Like, if they hurt people, or insult me, stuff like that.). I'm actually pretty apathetic to the whole thing, I don't really care if you're whatever. Just don't make it the be-all-end-all or who you are. I'm sort of a live and let live type of person.

So, to summarize, if you love someone, good! I won't always think it's right though. I'm not going to stop anyone.

A user of this : And this is an example of how a true Christian should present themselves. You clearly do not agree with homosexuality. No question on that. But you respect them as human beings as Jesus Christ said we should do. You don't dehumanize them by implying they should be seen as animals or inanimate objects. You don't promote world wide oppression and discrimination. You presented your stance on the matter in a dignified, respectable, and welcoming manner. Props to that post.

I've never understood why when the subject of homosexuality comes up, there's always at least one person willing to compare a homosexual relationship with two people, to a relationship with an animal or an object, and even pedophilia... seriously? That's extremely offensive to people who are homosexual. I've never seen anyone who has opposed homosexual relationships, give any good or valid reason for it. It's usually just ignorance, or religious indoctrination against it.

My brother is gay, and he is planning to come out to the family this christmas(my father is a baptist preacher), so it's going to be an interesting Christmas. My brother has my support 100%. I don't take kindly to people who put homosexuals in the same basket as pedophiles or people who have sex with cars... just stahp it, don't embarrass yourself.

Mr. Zed :

     No. I don't quit. I fight till the fight is won. Or me and my opponent part ways. Don't be afraid to say something on the matter. I know if you talk badly about the gays that people will think of you as a bully. But you're no bully if you're speaking what you think is right. I look at it like this. Guys were never intended to mate with guys. Is was never intended by nature for that to happen. Even Homosexuals admit that their behavior is morally degrading. They do need help, and a lot of people just keep them enslaved. They say "You're fine the way you are, don't change." Even worse, they make up stuff like the gay gene to push their political agendas, and make gays think that since they were born that way, they will never be able to obtain normality. But they can. It's been done in the past. And I know that people say that a person who changes from gay to straight is still gay on the inside. Well, that's not true. Other than the fact that God has performed miracles on gay people and has releived them of this curse.They were never gay on the inside in the first place. You can choose you fate. Never let your circumstances keep you from what is right.

Here, about airplanes.

Airplanes, they don't force anything unatural on our bodies. But Gay people do. A house is not unatural. Many different kinds of animals make nests and those sorts of things. Even tools. Humans are much smarter, So we make much better houses.

A pandemic is a bad thing that should be treated to remove it even if it will go away on it's own. I'm not sure if one ever has gone away by itself. It might have, but I'm almost certain that every time it has had some kind of resistance.
I understand youre plea of not wanting to judge. I don't like to tell people who are gay, bisexual, or lesbian that they are wrong, and I'm glad that I won't have to debate annette. But you don't have to judge them. All that God asks is that you warn them. Warn them of what's coming! If you're freind was about to be hit by a giant semi truck, would you just stand there? NO! You would warn them with all your heart, understanding, and earnesty of the coming danger. There is danger in this life and the afterlife for them. See this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_who_had_sex_with_men#Health_issues

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aids

They say that the average life expetancy of gay person is 40 years.

That's a short life before reaching hell.

No. Not my freinds.

The Bad guys are the people who just wave this stuff off and say that homosexuals,

lexbians, and bisexuals are just fine.

No, they are not.

They are in danger.

Both the people who are Homosexual, Lesbian, Or Bisexual and the people who are not but support it are no help to them.

Evolution, or God, or both if you wish to view it that way. Did NOT make men and women for this kind of behavior. It is a disorder that must be stopped before more people get hurt and the disorder spreads. People seem to think that in old times that people hated homosexuals and would kill them on site. That's just the assumption. There were many parents who if they found out, they would whip their son and tell him to get a grip. They would raise him to drop that disorder like a real man. And, not to mention the threat of sever punishment by the by authorities is pretty good motivation to change.

PokefanKala :

Wow, you did good! I appreciate your attitude in this debate, I wasn't expecting that from you at all.

"sexuality, or whatever other biological differences you want to throw in there are having a safe, consenting relationship."

Gay people are at risk of many different kinds of diseases, because the masculine rear is not built for the sexual activity that a woman is. Some of these Sicknesses include AIDs and Hepetitus B

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_who_had_sex_with_men#Health_issues

Not that you can take everything that you hear on the internet as truth. But considering sexual activity between men places. . . well, I won't say it, that would explain the health problems that they experience. I have a relative who was gay and died from AIDs. @.@ Yes, striaght people can get AIDs to, but it their bodies are made to handle the activity, but two gay taking turns on top of each other are not. Even a condom will not fully protect from sickness.

"Being gay isnft the only thing that makes them who they are"

Our characteristics do make us who they are, but does unatural behaviour make us who we are? Some people might identify someone else by their skills at stealing, but that's not neccesarilly a good thing. Being gay does not make up part of you core personallity.

"You seem to believe that being homosexual is a curable disease, am I right? Sorry, but itfs actually not. It is set at birth, and cannot be changed. It is not a choice. It is not being gsick.h It is literally their biological identity in their DNA"

If you are referring to the gay gene, then no.
The gay gene is not a proven fact, and people have gone from being gay to being straight.

They say that people are born homosexual and cannot change, but people have changed in the past. It is not proven that they are born this way either. Look, even my brother was born left handed, but guess what? My dad knows that everything in life is geared for a right hander. So what did he do? He forced my brother to use his right hand since he was a little toddler.

Guess what?

Now he's right handed.

Things are a lot easier on him than they might be because of that change to.
Although he is still left footed and uses his left eye.

But you don't have to worry about whether you're left footed or not in life much. Hands and feet are made to be used either way.

Anyone can change, even a gay person.


"but feel free to look up what scientifically makes somebody gay if you wish"

Be careful what you read on the internet as not all of it is true, especially regarding political issues. Ussually if you want to bring something like this as evidence on the table of a debate, you have to post the article, but I don't take anything from the internet really, as a lot of it is just a wild goose chase. Sorry.

     You might be able to sort out the truth after a lot of time and study, but I don't have enough time for that. I find it best to debate people in simple context without much internet research that everyone can understand and see from their own perspective.

"These people (or at least most of them) are not just making a random decision like Hey, I feel like I want to be gay for a while! That would not be very smart, for one thing, considering how theyfre treated by others for it"

Sex is a pretty hard drive. People choose to do drugs even though they know that they will be shunned somwhat for their actions. Even my bisexual friend is very discreet about dating guys.

"They cannot help their sexuality any more than you can, and it is not a disease"

Not a disease, but, think about this.

If someone wanted to marry bacon, we would wander what is wrong them. We might question that person's intelligence. People are not supposed to marry bacon, or have sex with it. Men are only made for women. Anything else is a disorder and is unatural. It can even put a person at risk of disease. Some really bad diseases.

I can't think of anything bad that would come from having sex with bacon, but if a parent found out about their son doing something like that, then they might just decide that they had better do something about it or else they'll have a crazy son.

"Our adaptability and our ability to try new things are some of the main reasons our species is still around, and is doing so well today."

We do make tools and such but I do consider tools and houses very much natural things. Even bees make hives and ant make their own homes. Lot's of different animals naturally make things out of their environment. I would call a village
"civilized" and a forest "natural" But being gay is not natural in the least. That goes for the so called gay animals as well. If they are really gay.

"but just because somebody is different from you, does that make it wrong"

No, but as a healthy individual with a sound mind and a sound body, they should not take part in unnatural gay sex.

"seeing the word normality used as an argument did not make me very happy"

I was using the word normality synonymously to the word natural.

"I am very different from most people because I am gifted and introverted, and I prefer intellectual pursuits over social interaction"

Me too. I am pleased to meet someone else who shares the same interests. Don't worry about that to much, but don't forget your friends and family either.

"Im honestly a bit of an innocent, and Ifd rather not talk about sex and all its weird grossness in detail here"

I don't blame you! I'm trying to keep this as clean as possible. Sorry about anything gross.

"but technically the reason we are supposed to have sex is just to have babies. Do people only do it to have babies?"

No, it is for having children and for relationship. But it should be denied gay individuals becuase it is damaging to their bodies and it is disordered behavior.

"One of my best friends was adopted from China, and even though her parents are not her birth parents, she and her brother (who was adopted from Korea), are in a lovely family, with two very loving, able parents. Yes, she has straight adoptive parents, but I think the same principle would apply if the parents were gay."

I would still disagree because in nature the father and mother are the ones made to raise their children. Two guys are not naturally made to raise what a man and a woman are made to raise, although an adoptive mother and father could somewhat replace a child's real parents. But not perfectly.

"Gay parents have the same capacity for love as straight parents do."

Still disagree because they are not made to raise children in nature that way.

"Even penguins sometimes adopt the children of other penguins. Adoption is not unnatural"

That's pretty cool actually. I'm not saying that adoption is unnatural at all. But two guys in a sexual relationship raising a child is.

- Regarding overpopulation

"I donft know what conspiracy theory youfve been buying into"

I think that overpopulation is the conspiracy theory actually.
I mean, a lot of normal people think that the world isn't overpopulated at all and call overpopulation the conspiracy theory.

"Also, as I said before, even some straight couples cannot or do not produce any children. Should they be banned from marriage?"

Some kinds of infertility can be fixed by diet. But there's nothing wrong with such a couple, infertillity is a problem, but if it's out of their hands then there isn't anything they can do about it, but gays can and should change to a natural sex life.

" AS LONG AS IT ISNfT HURTING ANYONE. Druggies are unfortunately hurting themselves, and they sometimes pull other people into their dangerous activities as well"

Already covered. And, some gays will pull others into their same sex habits by influencing them. If a child grows up in a city where there are a lot of gays at his school, then he might become gay when he becomes 13 because of all the gays already around him, and if a 15 year old gay is already liking him when he is 11. . .

"Please remember that this also is just my opinion, and I really donft mean any offense by any of it so if for some stupid reason I come off wrong here, I apologize profusely. Feel free to respond if you have any additional questions."

     Ehh, don't worry about offending me on accident. I know how debates are. People choose to take an offense. Usually an offense is only taken if the opponent can't actually defend against an argument, but not always. You have a gift for this sort of thing, and a degree of wisdom. When I was 12, I made it out to discover the truths of life. It's neat that you're already in college. I had a chance to get into college a few months ago, but I refused because I found that I didn't want to spend anymore time in school if  I could be making money. Today I am part of a game making studio and am trying to make a living off of physical labor, book making, and various parts of game designing. God bless you in your quest for wisdom. But beware the internet, it has a lot of crazy ideas out their, and just cause it's there doesn't mean that you can trust it. It can take a lot of examining just to make sure that one study on the internet is accurate. Even then though, people can still lie. I get a lot of my information from people who are 60 + years old. Why? Cause, these people have lived almost a whole life. They are the giants whose shoulders we can stand on to see farther. Books can be good, but they can have twisted facts inside them to. I find real people who care about you to be the most credible. Just make sure that the people arn't selfish people that you're listening to. That will tell you if they are out so serve themselves, or to lay a path down for the next generation. A person's selflessness will tell you the most about them.

-----

We are not discrimination against gays like some people do to blacks, or jews, which people seem to want to be wiped out by the muslims. We are against gays because of their actions. Not their skin. Never be afraid to stand for the truth when the time is right. They'll call us bullies, but they need our help. Not proggresives who use them as a political tool and enslave them with lies like the gay gene. Who will stand for truth? Who will free them?
I will.


A user of this :

The bible speaks on the subject in the Book of Romans Chapter 1.
It warns of the dangers of homosexuality. If we as Christians care about our friends, then I think that we would warn them of the coming dangers of homosexuality, and even Hell which waits at the end. If we care about them. Politics is just the application of our morals. Think about this. If the penalty for being homosexual is great enough, the number of people who consider homosexuality would decide that it is not worth it. They say that people are born homosexual and cannot change, but people have done so in the past. It is not proven that they are born this way. But look, even my brother was born left handed, but guess what? My dad knows that everything in life is geared for a right hander. So what did he do? He forced my brother to use his right hand.

Guess what?

Now he's right handed.

Things are a lot easier on him than they might be because of that change to.

Although he is still left footed and uses his left eye.
But you don't have to worry about whether you're left footed or not in life much. Hands and feet are made to be used either way.

Anyone can change.

The constitution states that rights come from our creator, but the Bible does not list homosexuality as a right, but as an abomination.

sloanstar1000 :


"I've never understood why when the subject of homosexuality comes up, there's always at least one person willing to compare a homosexual relationship with two people, to a relationship with an animal or an object, and even pedophilia... seriously? That's extremely offensive to people who are homosexual"

Offensive doesn't mean inaccurate. Perhaps it is offensive because it is the same thing? And they can't defend against it?
A person who wants to marry an animal would complain that you can't hold people so highly above animals, especially when it interferes with true love.

How about polygamy?

"It's usually just ignorance, or religious indoctrination against it"

I would accuse you of the same thing. How bout public school education-indoctrination?

. . .

like in California . . ?

Txgangsta:

I've spoken a lot on the topic myself, I think that I may call it quits myself-

-???? ?????