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NFL 2011-2012 Season Discussion Thread
08-29-11 12:19 PM
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This thread is for anybody that wants to discuss the 2011-2012 NFL season.
The first thing I'm going to discuss is my predictions for this year . AFC East: New England Patriots 12-4 AFC North: Pittsburgh Steelers 11-5 AFC South: Houston Texans 10-6 AFC West: Kansas City Chiefs 10-6 AFC Wild Card 1: New York Jets 11-5 AFC Wild Card 2: Baltimore Ravens 10-6 NFC East: Philadelphia Eagles 12-4 NFC North: Green Bay Packers 12-4 NFC South: Atlanta Falcons 11-5 NFC West: Arizona Cardinals 10-6 NFC Wild Card 1: New Orleans Saints 11-5 NFC Wild Card 2: Dallas Cowboys 10-6 AFC Champion: New England Patriots NFC Champion: Dallas Cowboys Super Bowl Champion: New England Patriots Totally not biased (yes it is ) The first thing I'm going to discuss is my predictions for this year . AFC East: New England Patriots 12-4 AFC North: Pittsburgh Steelers 11-5 AFC South: Houston Texans 10-6 AFC West: Kansas City Chiefs 10-6 AFC Wild Card 1: New York Jets 11-5 AFC Wild Card 2: Baltimore Ravens 10-6 NFC East: Philadelphia Eagles 12-4 NFC North: Green Bay Packers 12-4 NFC South: Atlanta Falcons 11-5 NFC West: Arizona Cardinals 10-6 NFC Wild Card 1: New Orleans Saints 11-5 NFC Wild Card 2: Dallas Cowboys 10-6 AFC Champion: New England Patriots NFC Champion: Dallas Cowboys Super Bowl Champion: New England Patriots Totally not biased (yes it is ) |
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08-30-11 03:05 PM
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I agree with a good portion of this myself, but there's a few things I think are off:
I don't think the Chiefs will repeat last years performance. They might be okay this year, but they won't repeat; I think they'll be 50/50, or have a slightly losing season. (8-8 or 7-9) I think the Eagles are overrated. They WILL be good, but not as good as they're lauded to be. Maybe 10-6 or 11-5 at most. I do not believe Kevin Kolb will win 10 games. He is definitely an upgrade from last year, and the Cardinals are in the playoff race because of him, but he won't win 10 games. Nine wins is a bit of a stretch, but he might be enough of a quality quarterback to pull off 9 wins. I'd consider Kolb to be sort of a Super Rookie honestly; he's not a rookie, but he's never truly been a starter and he's never been a Cardinal. My guess here is 8-8. Anywhere else, that's just meh, but in this division it's a legitimate shot at the playoffs. If Houston's Defense is even adequate this year, I wouldn't be too surprised if they took the AFC Championship. It all depends on how much their Defense has improved though; it's make or break for them by this point. (As a side note, I really don't think they have a shot to win the Superbowl, even if I think they have an outside chance of making it TO the Superbowl) My guess here is 10-6 or 11-5, but I'd sooner guess 11-5 honestly. If their Defense is still atrocious though, expect another bust of a season. I think the Browns just might make the Playoffs this year. It's an outside chance, and I don't think they'll make it far in the playoffs, but I wouldn't be too surprised if they swiped a Wild Card slot. It depends on how well the Offense adjusts to West Coast (Which it might excel in, they have the pieces for it) and how well the Defense does. 9-7 or 10-6; 10-6 might get them Wild Card, 9-7 will not. I think they're more likely to go 9-7 and miss the playoffs though myself. Also, I think the Patriots will do better in the regular season than you say (13-3, maybe 14-2) and lose in the playoffs again, more likely than not. They do have good chances though I think. My best guess for this year at this point is Falcons/Jets in the Superbowl, with the Falcons winning. Honestly though, this is a very premature prediction, so take it with a grain of salt and don't go overboard with it. Anything can happen. I don't think the Chiefs will repeat last years performance. They might be okay this year, but they won't repeat; I think they'll be 50/50, or have a slightly losing season. (8-8 or 7-9) I think the Eagles are overrated. They WILL be good, but not as good as they're lauded to be. Maybe 10-6 or 11-5 at most. I do not believe Kevin Kolb will win 10 games. He is definitely an upgrade from last year, and the Cardinals are in the playoff race because of him, but he won't win 10 games. Nine wins is a bit of a stretch, but he might be enough of a quality quarterback to pull off 9 wins. I'd consider Kolb to be sort of a Super Rookie honestly; he's not a rookie, but he's never truly been a starter and he's never been a Cardinal. My guess here is 8-8. Anywhere else, that's just meh, but in this division it's a legitimate shot at the playoffs. If Houston's Defense is even adequate this year, I wouldn't be too surprised if they took the AFC Championship. It all depends on how much their Defense has improved though; it's make or break for them by this point. (As a side note, I really don't think they have a shot to win the Superbowl, even if I think they have an outside chance of making it TO the Superbowl) My guess here is 10-6 or 11-5, but I'd sooner guess 11-5 honestly. If their Defense is still atrocious though, expect another bust of a season. I think the Browns just might make the Playoffs this year. It's an outside chance, and I don't think they'll make it far in the playoffs, but I wouldn't be too surprised if they swiped a Wild Card slot. It depends on how well the Offense adjusts to West Coast (Which it might excel in, they have the pieces for it) and how well the Defense does. 9-7 or 10-6; 10-6 might get them Wild Card, 9-7 will not. I think they're more likely to go 9-7 and miss the playoffs though myself. Also, I think the Patriots will do better in the regular season than you say (13-3, maybe 14-2) and lose in the playoffs again, more likely than not. They do have good chances though I think. My best guess for this year at this point is Falcons/Jets in the Superbowl, with the Falcons winning. Honestly though, this is a very premature prediction, so take it with a grain of salt and don't go overboard with it. Anything can happen. |
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08-30-11 09:54 PM
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Not a big football fan, but here's the only prediction I will make.
The Cowboys will win their division and the Packers will repeat as champs. The Cowboys will win their division and the Packers will repeat as champs. |
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08-31-11 09:50 AM
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WarpStarFerret : I really like the Chiefs coaching staff, so I think they can do a repeat. I also believe the Eagles are overrated. I think Vick will be hurt by week 8, and Vince Young will lead them to 11-5 or 12-4. Arizona is just a gut feeling. I think Houston is to inexperienced to do well in the playoffs, even though I'll think they will get there. I love the Browns, they are my second team, but I don't think there is any chance they get into the playoffs in a division with Pittsburgh and Baltimore. I like your first prediction for the Patriots...my Super Bowl pick is completely biased, as I am a Pats fan. That being said, I still like my Super Bowl Picks.
legacyme3 : I don't think either of those will happen...but both could. legacyme3 : I don't think either of those will happen...but both could. |
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08-31-11 01:47 PM
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trouble982 : I say the Chiefs won't repeat this year because they had an easy schedule last year and have a much harder schedule this year--also, although it IS just the pre-season-and that should be taken into consideration-the Chiefs are doing atrocious. They have the lowest points per game so far I believe.
As far as the Browns go, I say they have a shot because I think they're good enough this year to maybe pull off 10 wins, and a key injury or two on either the Ravens or the Steelers would be all they would need to steal a Wild Card slot from one of them. Anything can happen, which is why I say they have a shot. I don't think Vince Young will do that well, but he does tend to win more often than not. We'll see. I somewhat agree with your take on Houston, but don't count them out if they make it to the playoffs-yes, they've never been there before, but that goes two ways. They could have a super-special insanely good Playoff gameplan pre-made for all we know. Though the inexperience there is a pretty big knock on their chances. Arizona is my home state; that should give my view more weight in this situation. Don't expect Kolb to break out this season. He could have a good season, just not a great one. I think the Rams and Cards battle it out for the division, but I think the Rams have a slightly better shot this year overall. New topic idea, if you agree trouble; how do you think the top Rookie starters will do? legacyme3 : Like trouble said, I don't think either will happen, but they ARE both good enough this year for that to possibly happen. As far as the Browns go, I say they have a shot because I think they're good enough this year to maybe pull off 10 wins, and a key injury or two on either the Ravens or the Steelers would be all they would need to steal a Wild Card slot from one of them. Anything can happen, which is why I say they have a shot. I don't think Vince Young will do that well, but he does tend to win more often than not. We'll see. I somewhat agree with your take on Houston, but don't count them out if they make it to the playoffs-yes, they've never been there before, but that goes two ways. They could have a super-special insanely good Playoff gameplan pre-made for all we know. Though the inexperience there is a pretty big knock on their chances. Arizona is my home state; that should give my view more weight in this situation. Don't expect Kolb to break out this season. He could have a good season, just not a great one. I think the Rams and Cards battle it out for the division, but I think the Rams have a slightly better shot this year overall. New topic idea, if you agree trouble; how do you think the top Rookie starters will do? legacyme3 : Like trouble said, I don't think either will happen, but they ARE both good enough this year for that to possibly happen. |
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08-31-11 08:07 PM
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I also agree with a large portion of the predictions made, however I am going to say Denver comes out of the AFC West and Indianapolis comes out of the AFC South. As far as the Super Bowl is concerned, I am going to go with New England from the AFC and New Orleans from the NFC, with New England winning the Super Bowl.
However, I am a bit concerned that time is slowly running out for this core group of players in New England to get that fourth Super Bowl title. If they can win that fourth Super Bowl, then they can officially move into the class of best franchises in NFL history among the likes of Pittsburgh, San Francisco and Dallas. However, I am a bit concerned that time is slowly running out for this core group of players in New England to get that fourth Super Bowl title. If they can win that fourth Super Bowl, then they can officially move into the class of best franchises in NFL history among the likes of Pittsburgh, San Francisco and Dallas. |
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09-01-11 12:47 PM
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WarpStarFerret : Offensive Rookie of the Year: Andy Dalton....Defensive Rookie of the Year: Von Miller. As for Cam Newton, I don't have high hopes for him. I just think he will be a total bust.
Sman : Denver is a really good sleeper pick...that division is very winnable. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Indy wins the South or gets a wild card....but I don't think they will. I see them as the 7th team this year. As for the New England Patriots....I'm a Pats fan, so I really do hope they get that 4th title. Right now I would put them in 5th in the Super Bowl Era of franchises, Behind (in Order IMO): Pittsburgh, Dallas, San Francisco, Green Bay. If they win the Super Bowl this year, I would put them in 4th . Sman : Denver is a really good sleeper pick...that division is very winnable. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Indy wins the South or gets a wild card....but I don't think they will. I see them as the 7th team this year. As for the New England Patriots....I'm a Pats fan, so I really do hope they get that 4th title. Right now I would put them in 5th in the Super Bowl Era of franchises, Behind (in Order IMO): Pittsburgh, Dallas, San Francisco, Green Bay. If they win the Super Bowl this year, I would put them in 4th . |
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09-01-11 05:47 PM
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trouble982 : I don't think Dalton will get Rookie of the Year. If he were on a better team he might have a shot, but honestly the Bengals had a lot more positions of need than just QB. He's also stuck in a very tough division with 3 teams that at least have chances of making the Playoffs. I'd say A.J. Green has a better chance than Dalton, just because he can't get sacked or throw interceptions. Dalton might be good next year if he survives this one, but this year is a lost cause for that team.
I think Julio Jones will win Offensive Rookie of the Year personally. He has enough talent around him to let him make plays without too much pressure. There's enough potential playmakers on Offense out of this draft that this could change though. My second choice for this award is Mark Ingram btw. On defense, I'm inclined to agree with you; Von Miller will dominate. Also, I don't think Newton will completely bust, but I do think he will be considered a bust due to where he was drafted at. (#1 Overall for those who don't know) He'll be decent in upcoming years and stay in the NFL, but I don't think he'll ever be a superstar. I could be wrong in either direction though. Newton could go either way just as easily in all honesty. That's why the Panthers took the risk in the first place... I think Julio Jones will win Offensive Rookie of the Year personally. He has enough talent around him to let him make plays without too much pressure. There's enough potential playmakers on Offense out of this draft that this could change though. My second choice for this award is Mark Ingram btw. On defense, I'm inclined to agree with you; Von Miller will dominate. Also, I don't think Newton will completely bust, but I do think he will be considered a bust due to where he was drafted at. (#1 Overall for those who don't know) He'll be decent in upcoming years and stay in the NFL, but I don't think he'll ever be a superstar. I could be wrong in either direction though. Newton could go either way just as easily in all honesty. That's why the Panthers took the risk in the first place... |
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09-01-11 06:31 PM
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WarpStarFerret : I think Cam Newton is the new JaMarcus Russel, total bust. Btw, Andy Dalton is just my gut feeling. I think he is going to have a freakishly good year because nobody is going to expect him to do anything on that team. I think he will past for 2800 yards and 19 touchdowns, and be the best rookie QB in this draft...at least that is starting this year. |
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09-01-11 08:24 PM
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I think the Steelers will go to the superbowl with a record of 11-5 or 12-4
and I think the saints will beat the packers in the NFC championship but lose to the steelers in the superbowl 24-17. The only thing that stands in Pittsburgh's way would be injuries. their offensive line has been riddled with injuries for the past couple of years, and they even had an injury already in the preseason, I think it was the 2nd game. Last year the only teams that beat the steelers threw for over 300 yards, so if they could improve their pass defense they would be pretty unstoppable mostly because of their defensive coordinator Dick Lebeau. If they improve the Pass defense their run defence would almost certainly falter a little, but with James Harrison and LaMarr Woodley coming in on the sides they would have to go up the middle through the entire defense I also agree that the eagles are over rated, but they will make it to the playoffs with 10 or 11 wins. As for everything else I dont really pay attention to the entire league that much so I dont really have an opinion for it. and I think the saints will beat the packers in the NFC championship but lose to the steelers in the superbowl 24-17. The only thing that stands in Pittsburgh's way would be injuries. their offensive line has been riddled with injuries for the past couple of years, and they even had an injury already in the preseason, I think it was the 2nd game. Last year the only teams that beat the steelers threw for over 300 yards, so if they could improve their pass defense they would be pretty unstoppable mostly because of their defensive coordinator Dick Lebeau. If they improve the Pass defense their run defence would almost certainly falter a little, but with James Harrison and LaMarr Woodley coming in on the sides they would have to go up the middle through the entire defense I also agree that the eagles are over rated, but they will make it to the playoffs with 10 or 11 wins. As for everything else I dont really pay attention to the entire league that much so I dont really have an opinion for it. |
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trouble982 : He might be the best starting Rookie QB this year, but I seriously doubt he'll pass Julio Jones, Mark Ingram, or even his own teammate A.J. Green in the polls for Offensive Rookie of the year. I wouldn't be surprised if he was in the top 5 or at least mentioned though. If he even gets 4 or 5 wins though, he has a shot. (I can't picture the Bengals getting more than 5 wins this season honestly. I just can't. )
By the way, do you think either Gabbert or Locker will start this season? I think they both have moderate chances of doing so. By the way, do you think either Gabbert or Locker will start this season? I think they both have moderate chances of doing so. |
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09-02-11 07:15 AM
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smbisme : You're predictions aren't bad...I just hope they are wrong (because I'm a pats fan ). I agree that the Steelers should go 11-5, 12-4. You would think that with Troy Palamalu and Harrison, their pass defense would be shut down.
WarpStarFerret : I think both have a chance to play. I don't think Gabbert will, but my guess would be that Locker will. As much as I like Matt Hasselback, he's pretty washed up. He'll be a great influence though on Jake Locker as the veteran QB that shares his wisdom. WarpStarFerret : I think both have a chance to play. I don't think Gabbert will, but my guess would be that Locker will. As much as I like Matt Hasselback, he's pretty washed up. He'll be a great influence though on Jake Locker as the veteran QB that shares his wisdom. |
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trouble982 : Even in the super bowl the only reason the packers won was their passing game.
I believe Aaron Rodgers threw for like 304 yards or something like that. I believe Aaron Rodgers threw for like 304 yards or something like that. |
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09-02-11 10:58 PM
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trouble982 : Not because he had too thats all he could do.
thats all anyone can do. The steelers have the best run defense in the game. the only teams that beat them are passing teams. thats why they won because the steelers corners cant cover a reciever the only defensive player that can is Polamalu. The steelers had 5 losses 4 in the regular season and the superbowl all 5 they gave up over 300 pass yards. thats why I say they need to get better at their pass D. thats all anyone can do. The steelers have the best run defense in the game. the only teams that beat them are passing teams. thats why they won because the steelers corners cant cover a reciever the only defensive player that can is Polamalu. The steelers had 5 losses 4 in the regular season and the superbowl all 5 they gave up over 300 pass yards. thats why I say they need to get better at their pass D. |
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09-03-11 11:20 PM
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smbisme : That's not entirely true. While it is true that their biggest weakness was their Pass D, the Packers did have a good enough running game in the Super Bowl to keep the Steelers Defense honest.
Also, Polamalu, although awesome at Run Defense, can be a liability in coverage at times. He's dangerous when he's blitzing, not as much when he's in zone coverage. He isn't that great at coverage, he's just the best at making the Running Backs quake in their cleats. Most of the Cornerbacks on that team are worse at coverage than him though... He isn't bad at coverage, it's just not his strength. They do need more quality Corners though. The Steelers' best Pass Defense player is probably the CB Ike Taylor. He doesn't make much of a splash because he doesn't go for interceptions, but he's really good at coverage and breaking up passes. He's the biggest reason Rodgers threw the ball to Jordy Nelson so many times. Ike was usually covering another Wideout. Also, Polamalu, although awesome at Run Defense, can be a liability in coverage at times. He's dangerous when he's blitzing, not as much when he's in zone coverage. He isn't that great at coverage, he's just the best at making the Running Backs quake in their cleats. Most of the Cornerbacks on that team are worse at coverage than him though... He isn't bad at coverage, it's just not his strength. They do need more quality Corners though. The Steelers' best Pass Defense player is probably the CB Ike Taylor. He doesn't make much of a splash because he doesn't go for interceptions, but he's really good at coverage and breaking up passes. He's the biggest reason Rodgers threw the ball to Jordy Nelson so many times. Ike was usually covering another Wideout. |
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09-04-11 01:33 PM
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smbisme : That's all he could do because Ryan Grant, their star running back, was hurt in the regular season. Even with that, they had a good enough running attack to keep the Steelers defense wary.
WarpStarFarret: Idk...I think I'd still pick Polamalu in pass defense over Ike Taylor. He's got the speed and awareness most of the time to get to the ball before the receiver, and even when he doesn't he usually has the speed to stop the receiver from breaking loose. WarpStarFarret: Idk...I think I'd still pick Polamalu in pass defense over Ike Taylor. He's got the speed and awareness most of the time to get to the ball before the receiver, and even when he doesn't he usually has the speed to stop the receiver from breaking loose. |
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09-04-11 08:25 PM
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WarpStarFerret : Polamalu rarely blitzes, usually at most a couple times a game.
He is best in pass defense, because he makes the QB think he isnt covering who he's throwing to, then when the QB throws he comes out of nowhere and deflects or intercepts the ball. In his career he has 8 sacks, and 27 interceptions, so I would definitely take him in pass coverage over Ike Taylor. Ike Taylor isn't all that good at coverage. He has the speed to cover if he messes up but that doesn't always work. He is best in pass defense, because he makes the QB think he isnt covering who he's throwing to, then when the QB throws he comes out of nowhere and deflects or intercepts the ball. In his career he has 8 sacks, and 27 interceptions, so I would definitely take him in pass coverage over Ike Taylor. Ike Taylor isn't all that good at coverage. He has the speed to cover if he messes up but that doesn't always work. |
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09-06-11 10:07 AM
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I have a feeling the Eagles are going to run away the NFC this year. All they lacked last year was a defense. The offense was always explosive and putting up big amounts of points. They just couldn't stop opposing offenses. The biggest problem they seemed to face last year was against the run. No, they haven't really improved in the line backer area of the defense but, both of the corners they acquired in the off-season are great open field tacklers and can get in the backfield with ease.
Not so sure about records but, as far as divisions go I think the following will take the divisions.: AFC East-This division could go to either the Jets or Patriots. Also watch out for the Bills. Fitzpatrick is going to be starting every game this year if there is no injury. They have also beefed up the defense. Watch for Merriman to lead the league in either sacks or tackles. AFC North:Baltimore Ravens. Statistically speaking, the losing team in the Super Bowl never even makes the playoffs 90-95% of the time the following season. I don't expect the Steelers to be nearly as good as they have been. AFC South: Indianapolis Colts. They're still going to run away with the division with ease. The Texans did absolutely nothing to improve their defense which is what demolished them last year. They also need to bring about a more balanced offense. They either do nothing but run or nothing but throw. Pound the ball with faster 55-60% of the time to open up the play action with 'Dre Johnson and they'll be solid on deep threat plays. AFC West: Oakland Raiders. The Chiefs aren't going to repeat what they did last year. A lot of close games. They shouldn't of even made the playoffs but Oakland couldn't win a game out of division while they swept the entire division in divisional play. Watch for them to make a move this year though. NFC East: Philadelphia Eagles. The NFC East isn't half of what it used to be back in the power days of the NFC East. Watch the Eagles run away with ease. NFC North: Green Bay Packers. Rodgers has proved himself to be pretty much unstoppable. Although Chicago could make a run, you never know. Every dog has it's own day. NFC South: Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Do not sleep on these boys here. Was an extremely young team last year and they still did their thing. This is easily the most exciting division this year. It's going to be the most competitive division in the league. Even the Carolina Panthers are going to look decent. Cam is still young, maybe overrated but, without a doubt the kid is a play maker. So don't count him out. NFC West: San Francisco 49ers. I think this is their year this year. It should've been the past two or three years. The offense and defense both only keep getting better on paper. All they need to do is grab a Qb somewhere. Alex Smith certainly isn't cutting it so cut him. Get rid of Smith and the 49ers are one hell of a team. They have all sorts of names on both offense and defense. Top 5 running back in the game with Gore. Top 5 tight end in the game with Vernon Wells. Best line backer in the game when looking at Patrick Willis. They also have the speedster Teddy Ginn playing special teams and wide receiver. Opposite side of course, Michael Crabtree. Not so sure about records but, as far as divisions go I think the following will take the divisions.: AFC East-This division could go to either the Jets or Patriots. Also watch out for the Bills. Fitzpatrick is going to be starting every game this year if there is no injury. They have also beefed up the defense. Watch for Merriman to lead the league in either sacks or tackles. AFC North:Baltimore Ravens. Statistically speaking, the losing team in the Super Bowl never even makes the playoffs 90-95% of the time the following season. I don't expect the Steelers to be nearly as good as they have been. AFC South: Indianapolis Colts. They're still going to run away with the division with ease. The Texans did absolutely nothing to improve their defense which is what demolished them last year. They also need to bring about a more balanced offense. They either do nothing but run or nothing but throw. Pound the ball with faster 55-60% of the time to open up the play action with 'Dre Johnson and they'll be solid on deep threat plays. AFC West: Oakland Raiders. The Chiefs aren't going to repeat what they did last year. A lot of close games. They shouldn't of even made the playoffs but Oakland couldn't win a game out of division while they swept the entire division in divisional play. Watch for them to make a move this year though. NFC East: Philadelphia Eagles. The NFC East isn't half of what it used to be back in the power days of the NFC East. Watch the Eagles run away with ease. NFC North: Green Bay Packers. Rodgers has proved himself to be pretty much unstoppable. Although Chicago could make a run, you never know. Every dog has it's own day. NFC South: Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Do not sleep on these boys here. Was an extremely young team last year and they still did their thing. This is easily the most exciting division this year. It's going to be the most competitive division in the league. Even the Carolina Panthers are going to look decent. Cam is still young, maybe overrated but, without a doubt the kid is a play maker. So don't count him out. NFC West: San Francisco 49ers. I think this is their year this year. It should've been the past two or three years. The offense and defense both only keep getting better on paper. All they need to do is grab a Qb somewhere. Alex Smith certainly isn't cutting it so cut him. Get rid of Smith and the 49ers are one hell of a team. They have all sorts of names on both offense and defense. Top 5 running back in the game with Gore. Top 5 tight end in the game with Vernon Wells. Best line backer in the game when looking at Patrick Willis. They also have the speedster Teddy Ginn playing special teams and wide receiver. Opposite side of course, Michael Crabtree. |
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(edited by JayOhEssAitchYouAy on 09-06-11 10:09 AM)
09-06-11 10:55 AM
trouble982 is Offline
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JayOhEssAitchYouAy : HAHAHA. Watch out for the Buffalo Bills? If they win more than 4 games this season I'll eat my words...but I don't see them doing any better than 2-14, 3-13. They very well could be the worst team in the league. They lost their best offensive player in Lee Evans, and their best Defensive players Paul Posluszny. They are going to be the bottom feeders of the league.
Also, the Cheifs have a really good coaching staff so don't write them off that fast . Also, the Cheifs have a really good coaching staff so don't write them off that fast . |
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