If you going to get your degree, make sure you save enough money to know where it will be needed. My friend has his Master's in English and he was working at Wal-Mart for over a year. He's teaching colleges now, but that first year did kind of suck. Another of my friend's mothers has her BA Psychiatry, and she was working for some unrelated office job. One of my teachers had told all the college degree is a piece of paper that tells other people that you stuck through it, and graduated, that's about it.

You just need to know where there is a demand, before you graduate, and try to save some money to move if necessary.

You don't need a degree to be more successful, but it does open up some doors. 

I'm vehemently opposed to the "college-prep-only" tactic utilized by my state's education gurus.  They are slowly but effectively taking out the programs that teach vocational skills.  For instance, I was in my high school's last metal shop class before they closed the program about 10 years ago.  In that class, I learned braking, spot and mig welding, riveting, forging, and perhaps a dozen other skills useful to society.  I was always college bound, but there were a number of people in class who could offer more to society as metal workers (or something similar in the industrial arts).  Those same people, if in my old High School today, would be forced to take solely college-prep classes.  What good will that do?  They're the ones who will probably get in trouble and get nothing out of High School because there is nothing to challenge their interests. 

But certainly, their lives would be better if they went to college, right?

Now, lets look at the economics.  Say I take an intro industrial arts class and fall in love with welding.  If my high school would support a vocational format and team with a local community college, I could graduate and take my ASME in my senior year.  At 18, I could be hired as a rookie welder making $20/hour. 

Working a 40 hour week 50 weeks per year, with a 15% tax bracket, I'm making $34,000 per year.  If I can save 10% and invest in a sensible retirement plan, I can expect 8% return.  By the time I'm 22, when my friends are graduating college, I'd have $15,320 saved. I've done good work and I've had a raise to $25/hour.  I now make 42,500 after taxes and keep saving 10% at the same return.  My retirement at 62 years old is worth $1,433,809 dollars.

My friends went to "Average College USA" at the US Department of Education's reported average tuition rate of $23,600.  After four years, they're in $94,400 debt. Good news, however. They get a job paying- lets go wild here- 100% more than what I started with- 68,000 after taxes.  They save the same 10% per year to pay off their federal loans, which bear a 2.75% interest.  In 12 years, their debt is paid off.  They now get a big 50% raise and now make an amazing $102,000. They, too, save 10% at the same return. Their retirement account at 62 is worth $972,456.

So-
as a welder, I made $1,836,000 in income.
as college grads, my friends made $3,672,000
They made exactly DOUBLE what I made.

But, even though we both lived perfectly well within our means, I retire with $461,000 more dollars.  This is the fallacy of the statement "College grades earn X percentage more than non college grades over a lifetime!!! Go to college!!!"  Because my college friends took on debt and delayed when they could start investing and building a retirement, they lost out.

If carefully planned, a vocationally prepared student can do much better for themselves than a collage grad.  It's time to stop forcing our students who aren't good candidates for college to sit in a college prep track.  Keep our education varied and fair for all!

-Andrew

Dfsg : Thank you so much for your insights.

I can't remember when, but my father told me exactly your story. He's not a skilled worker like you but he lived in a time in Quebec where such worked was seen as lowly compared to college. Now, we have a surplus of people with diplomas with very little "useful" work opportunities outside of research in colleges or government.

Well, just to be fair I'm a college graduate, not a welder- I was just supposing I was one for the example.  My grandfather was a welder and did well for himself.

But I totally agree that there is plenty of room for skilled laborers, and they are garnering higher and higher pay because most (and nearly all) High School students just aren't allowed to be set up to join those professions.  College is not "worth it" socially, emotionally, mentally, or even financially for a lot of people.

Dfsg : In other words this is just another case of the law of unintended consequences - actions people take that governments hadn't forecasted.

Actually, I think it might actually be jealousy. I recently saw an excerpt from a movie (TV series?) about a U.S. president who sat with French aristocrats at the time of the War of Independence. They were looking down at him because he wasn't into "the arts" and was too much down-to-earth. Translated today this would be the ivory-tower elite in academia looking down at the plebe who doesn't use their brains as much as THEY do... while forgetting that these 'lowly" people are the reasons why THEY can have a life of thinking rather than use their hands.

This upsetting of the division of labor and perversion of incentives is becoming the next bubble...

That's a very interesting point I hadn't considered.  Perhaps it is an aristocratic sort of system.  One that just can't believe that you can live a happy, healthy, profitable life actually doing a trade you enjoy.

I also completely agree with you that we're headed for a big bubble because of all this college stuff.

The New York Times also published an article about the outrageous costs of college and the true reason behind it entitled "The Real Reason College Tuition Costs so Much" earlier this month.  They look at how administrators will argue that it's because there is less public funding, but their research has revealed that colleges and universities really just have too many administrators nowadays.  So all this hiked tuition hasn't gone to pay for better teachers or better programs, it's gone to pay for more bureaucracy.  Oscar Wilde one famously quipped "The bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy."  

So- this hike in tuition should be driving most students to seek out the vocations, since there is no extra benefit from college despite the cost.  The only roadblock to this occurring is high school unwillingness to break from a college prep only track.

Blech...


-Andrew

Dfsg : The quote is from Oscar Wilde? Civ. IV says unknown when we discover it!

Anyway, despite the high cost of college people still go towards it because of incentives to go there, i.e. all those government grants. It artificially increased demand, which in turn increased tuition. No doubt that college bureaucracy increased too. I once campaigned with a provincial politician (Quebec) and I met with an old man.

He told me that he once met the original administrator of a hospital (a nun) before it came under the control of government. She said that there were exactly the same number of beds as 40 years ago, but there are now 450 bureaucrats to administer it all. ALL the construction around the hospital was to "house" those people.

It depends what you go for, some jobs require degrees and some do not. Like my field which is art, if you are looking for a job all you need to do is get your profolio ready and be able to meet deadlines. But it is worth it? I'm not sure, if you don't mind paying for expensive student loans for every year you go to college then go for it. Right now I owe at least 14k in student loans for one year of college. In my opinion it wasn't worth it. College isn't for everyone and a college degree doesn't always equal a good job.

xxxbluewolf : Especially for a passion like yours. Can college REALLY improve your talents? I mean, unless you're looking to improve your style.

Besides, I'm sure you would be stuck with classes that, while they improve your general knowledge, will probably do little to improve your painting

janus :

Haha, that's hilarious- That's exactly where I got that quote. I'm a Civ IV nut.  I just looked it up online before posting it and it was attributed to Oscar Wilde somewhere.  It sounds like something Wilde would say, but I don't know, the internet reeks in incorrectly atributed quotes!  As for your Hospital example, I can totally see that sort of a thing happening.  I recently read a fun joke about the Canadian government hiring a watchman....  But now I'm getting far off topic!

And xxxbluewolf:  I'd say definitely take some time to think about what you want to get out of your education, and see if it aligns with the financial sacrifice.  You might be surprised to find yourself moving in a different direction!

-Andrew

janus : Oh it can. You do have studio classes that teach about technique and we have 2 to 3 hour classes. First year was models and learning how to use black and white, though the rest depends upon you and how much you understand the material being talked about. This also depends on you and how long you practice, you have to study anatomy and understand composition. All of that comes before style which you can picked up from viewing other peoples art and digesting it and creating it into your own unique style. Not to mention that life skills is very crucial, you can't hop into oil painting or painting itself without learning anatomy.  Second year was learning about your major and learning how to use the tools given to you.

To Dfsg : Actually, with the many teachers and tutorials on YouTube I found out that it wasn't worth it. All the things I found were quick and effective. Many teachers at my college were often  impatient if a student didn't understand it or didn't make time for any of us. It's sad but in my personal experience it wasn't worth it. But as a comic book artist in training I've already done my research in what I need, so there's no worries in that department. I left college around last spring and made my decisions on what i wanted to do mid-summer. As for people who want to make out on their own all they need is the right mind set, determination and proper research.

xxxbluewolf : OK, pardon my ignorance. I'm still to the match-stick man stage of drawing

While you do seem to be learning, is college the best AND cheapest way to do it? In the long run private tutoring might be much cheaper... unless having a bachelor in arts (or whatever degree you are aiming at) is seen as important for potential employers. In that case, go for it will all you have and hope you can find the right job to pay back those loans.

xxxbluewolf : It's definitely great to see things working out the way you have them planned out!  If nothing else, having a good, detailed plan will help dictate your next best steps.

I see a lot of people go into college without planning it out, and they end up in the wrong major, or end up just not enjoying college at all.  It's a shame.  My best friend wanted to work in theater.  While still in high school he got some production manager jobs off Broadway.  He had some people looking at him for Broadway work.  But, since he wanted to go to college to get a degree in Theater/directing, he went off to a school in Wisconsin.  Of course, it was a private out of state school.  In his senior year, he had a lecturer say "Your degree will do nothing for you in this business".  Years later, and tens of thousands of dollars in debt, he realized if he had just worked up in Broadway all along, he'd probably be in a better place today.

 He had no plan- he never really investigated what he should do.

Of course, the same could be said for someone who wants to work in a field that doesn't require degrees for the entry level jobs, but does require college for any advancement- had you not planned out how you would handle college, you have similarly erred.

So- to answer the question posed as the topic for this post:  "Maybe, what has your research told you?"

-Andrew

This is a something I really think people need to change their thinking about.

You may have heard the expression "I have a bachelor of arts, would you like fries with that?" There are many many kids out there with bachelors of arts (or sometimes science) that are working a job completely unrelated to their degree... and dead end. Now I won't say those degrees are useless, because maybe the learning experience itself is what you find what worth the time. Maybe you didn't get a bachelors to get a good job, but simply to learn.

It depends a lot of what your goal is. Basically, if you want to use your education to land a career that you like and makes you money, either get a masters or higher, or go to a career college. Career and trades colleges graduates often finish in a few years and land great paying jobs that most with degrees wish they could have.

Ask yourself do I want education to help me get a good career, period? If yes, go get a diploma. But if you are passionate about learning and want to take years doing so, then get a degree. I'm tired of people always trying to tell kids that University is "better" that Career College, it really isn't, it's just two different things.

Light Knight : Nice illustration of what happens when government decides what's best for people.

In my native Quebec, tuition is ridiculously low - half of what it would have been had it merely followed inflation. As a result, "too many" people get into degrees with very limited opportunities (theater, sociology, history of the arts). They are also the first ones to organize boycotts because they want tuition to remain low as to "democratize" learning.

And yet Quebec has one of the lowest participation rates in higher education while Nova Scotia (in the top-3 for tuition rates) is also mong the top-3 graduation rates.

Indeed a career depends on your interests... providing you are shown a vast array of choices. I can barely remember whether my high school talked about trades. I think it was only in secondary 5 (terminal year of grade school) when they introduced us to the options of cégep (community college, really) where one can take a three-year program like nursing or lab technician and get a job right away.

Janus : Well, a lot of people go to art college for variety of mediums, which they do provide it's just really expensive. They sometimes offer you supplies and they sometimes don't, my Acrylic set which was 10 paints ended up at $200. It's just a school that helps you how to work on your skills and how to be professional while doing it. They do set you up with Disney or any big time company if they believe your portfolio is looking pretty good. However, in my personal opinion you don't need a BA degree to pursue in art. Most companies looking for artist don't even want to look at your degree. It's basically saying "Hey look at me, I went to college and I learned how to draw!" See how silly that sounds? They want to see your work and how it can bring them money. It's easy enough to graduate college and still not have the essentials with you, let alone the skills. Most artist nowadays are self taught and do have successful working jobs. You honestly have to keep working at it and know how to properly distribute yourself. Social medias are fine, because that's the quickest way to earn a fan base and owning your own personal website is really helpful as well. I know a lot of graduates at my school are required to have one.

Dfsg : I see that a lot as well, especially in art. However it costs 5k to change your major so they always tell you to do research your freshmen year. They also allow you to wander into peoples classes to see what they teach. I knew what I wanted to do before going to college, I wanted to go for Digital Illustration. It's just the cost of that college was too much, it was a double edge sword. I learned what I needed to learn but that knowledge was expensive but art is expensive period.  Do I regret going to college? Of course not. There's tons of advice and information that isn't on the web and I got a taste of what the art world feels like. There's classes that reenact what a art job feels like with a bunch of other students. Sure it may sucks that I couldn't finish but at least I have a story to tell.  I also wouldn't know what to actually look for regarding my field if I hadn't gone to college.  And unfortunately we have to go through mishaps in order to learn what's needed and what's not needed. Not many people know what they want, which is common.  They have to go out and experience what they want and decide for themselves if they want it or not. There's things research will tell you and there's things that it won't tell you, and you'll just have to experience them for yourself.

xxxbluewolf : Interestingly enough I've heard similar things about journalism. Many employers will avoid people with degrees in journalism because they prefer people with (for lack of a better word) natural talent.

I guess we share similar paths. I am rather self-taught when it comes to journalism, especially about politics and economics - at least half of what I learned was outside of a school context. I have been blogging since 2011 and I also wrote for newspapers in college and university. Thanks to contacts I have been able to expand this network of where In publish; I'm ending an internship in a news organization. I have even been able to find some freelancing opportunities!

janus : College is worth it depending on what you want to do with your life. Me I hate school absolutely despise it. So I went out found with I really love and went to a technical or career program for dog grooming. My college was six months and I loved every second on it and I now make more and always will make more than some of my friends who went or are in the process of going to school for four years. On top of that I am really happy and love my job. Some random old guy taught me this when I was younger and I have kept these words close to me my entire life. " You never work a day in your life if you love your job." Those  words could not be more true.  So to me its all up to you on if college is worth it or not. Choose a career you love and want to do for the rest of your life and do whatever it takes to get there. Whether it eight years of college or two months of hands on training. Do what you really love, because we only get one life and it needs to be lived to the fullest.

lilythetigerkity : I completely agree with that old man. Even though some days seemed longer because I didn't write much, the internship I just ended was one of the best jobs I've had because I was doing what I love: being paid to complain about government wrongdoing.

However, always remember this (you will discover it as you age): incentives matter. By making so much money readily available - and forgetting to show how much one will have to pay later in life - many people like you will just skip their dream job and do "like everyone else"

I love the idea of technical schools.  I also really love the idea of community colleges, as mentioned above.  Our local community college costs 1/5 the tuition and fees of our largest state school and 1/25 the most expensive institution in the state.  The best part?  A lot of professors from those larger institutions moonlight at the community college.  You can really get a grade-A education if you go local.  It's like buying the brand or the generic- you're still getting what you want, why pay for the fancy name that's attached?

So, especially in the realm of Community College, if you aren't sure about what you want to do, or want to just give college a try, it's much more worth it to start at community!  The second best part?  If you complete an associates degree, every four year state school has to accept 100% of the transferred credits here in my home state of New Jersey.  Then, you get the fancy name diploma, but for the first two years, you got an 80% discount!

Can't complain about the Community College option!

-Andrew