soxfan849 : "But unless you know for a fact that he exists, which no one does"

I myself know for a fact that he does exist because I'm not the same thug I used to be 8 years ago when I surrendered my life to Christ. I can guarantee you that if I had not surrendered to Christ I would not even be a member of this site because I would probably be dead.

I'm not that person I used to be; it's not because of my super powers to transform myself into a new person.

tRIUNE :

But it can be argued that you yourself used inner power to get you where you wanted to go. It's sort of like (but obviously not exactly like) my transformation into a much better runner in high school.

The first 3 years of my high school career I was a slow as hell JV runner.

The final year I became one of the best runners in my conference. And I didn't do anything different. I just believed in myself a lot more.

Which begs the question, on how one really "surrenders" themselves to Christ. When I hear surrender I don't always have pleasant thoughts on what it could mean.

play4fun :

I don't even begin to have the intelligence to respond to everything you said, partially because my insomnia seems to be affecting my ability to read things properly.

However, the one thing that jumped out to me was the question about motive.

My motive is that I just want to stop being so skeptical/cynical about everything. I don't like the person I am. I hear a lot about how changing your views on things can also change the type of person you are. While I'm not entirely doing it for this reason, it's a pretty big factor. Prior to this desire to change, I had very little interest in the subject, as I was pretty happy with who I was.

tRIUNE :

I'll pretend like I agree, even though I could argue with you about whether or not you could possibly "know" that god exists. Neither of us will be able to convince the other on this point, so I'll go along with it.

Anyway, so the reason you believe in god is because you've seen a massive transformation in your life, right? Because you've completely changed from being a "thug" to who you are now? What about those who haven't had such an experience?

You made the claim that those who don't believe in god have been failed by their conscience. So imagine a man who has always treated people respectfully. Imagine this man as someone even nicer and more respectful than yourself. He's the kind of person that everyone looks up to. But he doesn't believe in god. And he's never needed religion to make him the person that he is today. How has his conscience failed him, and what makes your's any better?

This is a little off-topic, but I believe that the only way to recognize a failed conscience is to recognize a certain display of hypocrisy. When we judge others for something they do, but excuse ourselves when we do it, that is a sign of a failed conscience. Personally, I'd like to believe that if any judgmental god exists, that is how he'd judge people.

legacyme3 : "how one really surrenders themselves to Christ"

It's my way of saying that I heard the gospel of Christ, it touched me, and I humbled myself to him to receive him as my Savior and allow him to be in charge of me and what entails in my day to day life.

soxfan849 : This is my point in "you have the testimony of the Christian"

I'm basically telling you personal stuff about me that "I'm not the same person anymore" because of my relationship with God through answered prayer and supernatural guidance.

tRIUNE :

The way you say that confuses me.

"allow him to be in charge of me and what entails in my day to day life."

When you say this it makes me feel like the freedom of choice, and in general life is wiped out. I rather like choosing for myself, given I am my own person. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I don't quite get that.

It's different than how that sounds; him being in control doesn't mean you're his puppet.

A quote from someone puts it this way: "I turned on a lamp. One moment it was dark, then I turned on the switch. The lamp surrendered itself to the electric current and light has filled the room. The lamp didn’t destroy its personality when it surrendered to the current. On the contrary — the very thing happened for which the lamp was created: it gave light."

Having him as the pilot means that you're sorta the co-pilot. For me, my life has been infinity better since surrendering to Christ; as this scripture explains:

For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. (Jeremiah 29:11)

Someone70 : almost everything you say there could be applied to any other religion though.
Also, if god will forgive anyone, dosent accountability go out the window?
Aka, here we have on earth a mass murderer, no matter what faith we follow, we want them punished, even if they repent, maybe they will even be executed.
But good would let them off?
Is that in itself not ignoring key teachings?
play4fun : there would be plenty to pick at there, but i will just hone on your statement about being humble, where lack makes belief impossible.
1st id say humble is the wrong word, as there are humble atheists and followers of faith who couldnt define humble let alone posses it.
But that wasnt my point.
Scientists believe different theorys, and battle (metaphorically, via research etc) to prove who is right. Whoever suceeds will infact uproot the previous belief and the new one will become the norm, evidence does rule.
However, when disproving faith, then you witness true resistance, the recipient will ignore key facts or shift them around in order to facilitate there beliefs, there were texans up in arms when a guy said the moon isnt a light, but a reflector, because the bible clearly states '2 great lights.'
But my closing statement?
Who cares.
Humans(apparently) are meant to be judge on there actions and deeds.
Scenario:
Old woman in street being mugged
Option 1: i help her, in i go, risk my neck, saved her, my pleasure, bye bye.
Option 2: i am told i have to save her or i will be punished, and if i do, ill be rewarded(lets say punishment, jail, reward, money)
Ok, in i go, done, now about that money.
1 of those is a sign of a goodheart, the other is far from certain, following a book on how to live life is like reading a script as an actor, using cheats or guides on games, looking at the answers for a test, you end up missing the point of the exercise and not being true to yourself, the best judge of heart is how you progress by yourself, if god (imagining it to be true for the sake of argument) was so massively concerned that you all consult the bible every 2seconds(or any text of any other faith) he'd be doing the sermons, not some preacher. As many have suggested no proof would be enough, im sorry, hes all powerfull, created the earth and all around it, made all life, and yet cant make it clear to us he' s there? Turn the moon purple and send an asteroid column by that says "i, god, am real" in 42 different languages and simultaneously put the message in everyones head. Theres really no disproving that.
Religious or not, both believe that humans are meant to live there lives as best as possible, and if youre not living it by what you think is right, you miss the message, i dont agree with any religious text, and could not, in good 'faith' [badoom doom ch] live by that, everyone needs to choose what they believe to be right.
/end.

That's kind of the definition of having faith; being sure that God exists despite God not altering the laws of physics in any detectable way, or being directly visible, measurable, and so on.

tRIUNE :

But what makes Christian testimony any more believable than the testimony of a follower of any other religion?

And I can't help but not understand your lamp analogy. Lamps don't have any kind of personality. You cannot destroy what does not exist in the first place. Plus the lamp didn't have any kind of free will.

thenumberone : To your response to Someone70, accountability definitely does not go out the window. Each and every one of us will have to answer to God for our actions. Of course, no individual action does get us into heaven. Instead, it is the five-letter word that tells all. Hebrews 11:1, 6-8 "Faith is the confidence of what we hope for and assurance of what we do not see. Without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe (inward) that He exists..."

By faith we believe God exists and, by faith, we are justified.

Now on to those arguments you gave to play4fun. Is it always to prove who is right, or are there actual moments where people instead seek truth? For example, it may have been years since then, but I know my history textbooks for highschool were watered down and did not tell me the whole story. I learned this when I actually went over the subjects again in college. Just because the materials I had changed over the years, it does not mean the past had changed with it --it just took longer for me to know the truth. As it is today, my faith in God is constantly evolving, not to prove anyone wrong but because I am in a constant search for the truth.

Also, refer to my previous post for a different aspect on the issue of "proof."

legacyme3 : Actually, that mind set goes under the assumption that anyone and everyone knows what is right and wrong. Jesus spoke to the Pharisees and Sadducees pointing out how they justified themselves with the law, but Jesus could see to their hearts. The reality of it is, we are all proven to be guilty of sin.

So what is sinful and what is good? None of us are God, so we can never fully know until the day of judgement --yeah I know this probably turns people off, but there's no other way of saying it without watering down the truth. When we give ourselves to Christ, yes, we may realize we have to give up certain things, but everything we have here hold no comparable value whatsoever to what God has for us in heaven. By giving myself to God, I am of God, and not of this world.

legacyme3 :
I was reading what your wrote from the previous posts, and mentioned about how you believed before. However, from what I mentioned from my first post, believing in something just because you think that you should believe in it is a "dead" faith. It's not true or genuine. It is going through the motions without actually believing it. The Bible also talks about those who seems to act like Christians, but they are in fact false converts and they never believed in the first place. So just to clarify with you, did you actually believe because it was shown evident to you that Christianity is true, or did you just believe because you think you should or that you are going through the motions? Did you have a conversion experience prior to becoming a Christian? Because no one is born a Christian.

thenumberone :
I can answer your first thing:
"Also, if god will forgive anyone, dosent accountability go out the window?
Aka, here we have on earth a mass murderer, no matter what faith we follow, we want them punished, even if they repent, maybe they will even be executed.
But good would let them off? "

Yeah, that would make Him unjust...except, He doesn't just freely forgive anyone. Everyone is guilty before God, but because Jesus died on the cross to be the atonement/substitution for our sins and take the punishment that we deserve, those who accept the free gift of God. When you trust in Christ, you put your faith in Jesus Christ on what he did on the cross, that what He did is to take your place of your sins, and that you are made clean in God's eyes because of what Jesus did, not by what you do. When you don't trust in Christ, you are saying that you are paying the cost of your sins on your own, which no one can pay the price of their sins. Those would not be forgiven, because in God's eyes, you are still stained in your sin and not wiped clean by Jesus' sacrifice.

"1st id say humble is the wrong word, as there are humble atheists and followers of faith who couldnt define humble let alone posses it. "

No, this is key. Humility is an important issue because if one is not humble before God of their sin or their lack of belief, they wouldn't come to God let alone believe in Him. "But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” (James 4:6) To those who are not seeking towards God or not open to believing in God, evidence will do absolutely nothing to the person. Like what Aura's example, Moses had to send in 10 plagues before the Pharaoh let the Hebrews go, and he still had a hardened heart after that. "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” (1 Corinthians 1:18)

"Scenario:
Old woman in street being mugged
Option 1: i help her, in i go, risk my neck, saved her, my pleasure, bye bye.
Option 2: i am told i have to save her or i will be punished, and if i do, ill be rewarded(lets say punishment, jail, reward, money)
Ok, in i go, done, now about that money.
1 of those is a sign of a goodheart, the other is far from certain, following a book on how to live life is like reading a script as an actor, using cheats or guides on games, looking at the answers for a test, you end up missing the point of the exercise and not being true to yourself, the best judge of heart is how you progress by yourself,"

It is from this scenario that I know you have very little understanding of what Christianity believes in. Again, we are all guilty before God. It is not about following a book of rules. Our actions are already deemed guilty because of our sin, no matter how many good things that we do. But because Jesus died on the cross, and we put our trust in Jesus, we are transformed to from sinner to saint. Instead of having a heart of stone, a God hating heart, are heart tainted with sin, we are transformed with a heart for God. Christians do good things not because they need to prove anything or to make up for their sins, they don't have to, they are completely forgiven because of what Christ did. We do good because we want to, because of how grateful of what God did, because you want to be like Him, for He is good, and you want to serve Him, for all glory belongs to Him. The Bible shows us what is good and what is sinful and how to deal with issues biblically, but we don't follow the Bible because we have to, we follow the Bible because we want to, to be righteous, to be good, to be like God.

"As many have suggested no proof would be enough, im sorry, hes all powerfull, created the earth and all around it, made all life, and yet cant make it clear to us he' s there? Turn the moon purple and send an asteroid column by that says "i, god, am real" in 42 different languages and simultaneously put the message in everyones head. Theres really no disproving that. "

and this is why being humble is important. Look at how you say it: You are telling the creator of the universe, the judge of you, the King of this world, that He should show you something that is out of the ordinary, when he already has creation to reveal to you the power of God. That He should listen to you, a puny human in the universe, that He should reveal Himself to you, when He has revealed Himself through His word, through His creation, and through your God-given conscience. You are made smart enough to see the results of a Creator God and your conscience points towards a righteous God. Now THAT would be cheating (referring to your post) if God were to just show you something out of the ordinary. Actually, that would be considered overly elaborated. And it won't even matter. Think back to the Pharaoh example, think of the Book of Revelation, which tells about all these Judgments that is to come and are supernatural by nature, and yet people will still not believe in God and will continue to shake their fists at Him. Your willingness to believe is key in believing in God, not evidence. Evidence just gives you assurance.

"However, when disproving faith, then you witness true resistance, the recipient will ignore key facts or shift them around in order to facilitate there beliefs, there were texans up in arms when a guy said the moon isnt a light, but a reflector, because the bible clearly states '2 great lights.' "

Yeah, except the Bible was written in a human's point of view during that time. The moon obviously seems like a light to a human at that time. People will probably find scripture to be weird to them during that time and probably would not follow it if it calls the moon to be a reflector with their understanding of the moon. You have to remember that the Bible is written at a certain time period with a certain understanding. Science helps extend the understanding of the world God created as times go on, but is compatible with Christianity. Obviously, the guy has no understanding of natural theology and reading in context of the culture of the Bible. But more to the point, faith of Christianity was never disproved. People's understanding of the Bible probably change with how much more we understand about the world and of theology through studying the Bible, but faith of Christianity was never disproved.

"But my closing statement?
Who cares."

Read the first post on this thread. The author, Legacy, cares, which is why he asked.

AuraBlaze : but to the point that if god forgives them yet we then punish them?
the fact is that your history books were biased( and tbh, most american history coverage is HEAVILY biased e.g abe lincoln wanting to free the slaves, eh, no)
play4fun : but if they repent in the last years of there life they get away with it?
You state that the desire to do good stems from a desire to be good, like god, the argument there would be, having read much of the bible, whether god is actualy good(although i think thap deviates from the point of the thread).
*on the proving to me part* well in that context he sounds exceptionally arogant, if he wont do it he clearly dosent care.
He hasnt ever 'proven' himself, my conscience comes from my family and friends, and those who have appeared in my life.
If conscience was god given did he give triune a 'thug' ish conscience?
Isnt it a massive coincidence the plagues, miracles, appearances and major new religions ceased when we started recording and keeping evidence, and since the camera came to be hes been oddly quiet.
A real example is key, until one occurs iv no reason to believe, if they find hyroglyphs depicting the plagues that may be a start, but apart from that theres nothing to say it wasnt made up(dont refer to plagues and droughts, they happened EVERYWHERE)
Well since multiple parts of the bible have been proven wrong its a fair assumption that much more is wrong.
If god was concerned he'd update the thing, its evidently not gods world and hence no true basis to win his favour.
I am aware he asked, you have taken it out of context(much like people say when you quote the bible).
I would have to cut 50% of the bible in order to seperate the errors or gross injustices, and my belief in science would essentialy overwhelm the rest of the bibles content.

thenumberone : Of course we humans strive to punish others of their actions regardless of what God sees. We demand retribution when we are wronged. The punishment that any justice system gives is completely and utterly separate from what God knows and does.

And of course a book itself can be biased on who writes it. (I didn't know Abe Lincoln simply wanted black people out of American society, and that he did not believe blacks were equal to whites, until I took college courses.) That does not mean we should throw out the baby with the bath water. I do not learn everything strictly from the book (history book, the Bible, etc), but it must coincide with scriptures in order for me to accept it. This is why the more I learn, the more I am proven to be guilty of sinning.

As for "death bed confessions," God may or may not accept them. He looks to the heart and knows the truth in us. Again, no specific actions get us to heaven.

Our desire to do good does stem from our desire to be good like God. And it's because He's good that we want to be like Him. Jesus himself said, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God."

"*on the proving to me part* well in that context he sounds exceptionally arogant, if he wont do it he clearly dosent care."

I have no idea what you mean by this. Could you please explain?

god has already proven himself to me. Yes, my family and closest friends are all like-minded Christians like me, but look a tRIUNE. He came from an entirely different family and whatnot, yet it certainly seems that we have come to the same conclusion about God. Everything I have seen, heard, thought, believed, points directly to God. Whether it is about human action or the origins of the universe, no other explanation has made more sense than what the Bible says.

What do you believe has been proven wrong about the Bible? play4fun just explained that, concerning the "2 great lights," that people in such an earlier time period would have thought that the moon was a light and did not reflect the sun's light. Just because a statement mean such-and-such when you read it the first time does not mean you have the right answer. Sun orbits the earth? Just ask Galileo.

AuraBlaze : why would he do as i ask, lowly human etc, sounds like a superiority complex. and i was saying if he isnt willing to prove it i cant see him caring.
Various parts of the bible say things about our world and the universe around us that are wrong, yes you can say its due to human error, but then its not gods word then is it?god makes errors in eplaining what he made?

thenumberone : Okay. I think that puts us on the same plane. The idea that God should continuously do something to prove himself to us is no superiority complex. This has happened with the Isrealties when God lead them out of Egypt. Despite the many signs performed before them, the Isrealites still tested God and continued to brake his commandments. God has said that he cannot reveal himself. Anyone who sees his face will die. That applies today as well. We cannot ask him to reveal himself in such a sense. If He did, then there goes all purpose of faith (Hebrews 11:6 & 8).

He deliberately made us to die if we saw him, and the reason is?
No ones asking continuous, just 1 clear sign.
I that was put in to counter the inevitable question of proof, yet raises more questions, it seems flawed logic.

play4fun :


"So just to clarify with you, did you actually believe because it was shown evident to you that Christianity is true, or did you just believe because you think you should or that you are going through the motions? Did you have a conversion experience prior to becoming a Christian? Because no one is born a Christian."

At first, I believed because my parents wanted me to. When you are young, you don't have much choice but to believe. Because at that age we are naive and follow our parent's desires whether we know better of it or not.

However, as I got older, I was given more freedoms. One of the freedoms I took for myself was the choice of religion. I never told my parents about it, as we were not practicing Christians. We believed, but never went to church.

I stopped believing in my teen years, because I wasn't sure how I could believe in him. It felt wrong to worship something I myself have never seen. As I grew older still, I grew accepting of not being able to see him, as no man should. However, I still couldn't bring myself as far as believing in him. I'm not "entirely" sure why, but I know I don't believe.

Sketch83-54 :

The water and trees, etc. exist whether or not god does. To use them as proof of god's existence is not only intellectually lazy, it's absolutely absurd. It's like saying that the pyramids could not be built unless aliens had helped the Egyptians, therefore aliens helped build the pyramids. The problem is that correlation does not prove causation, and you still have failed to prove that god has anything to do with the existence of anything. You've simply stated what we already know; that things which exist do exist.

"Now I know other planets could sustain life but not for long."

Unless you've observed every planet in the universe, then that statement cannot be known to be true. It is possible to prove the opposite without observing every planet, since the existence of only one planet which can sustain human life automatically proves that it cannot be true that there are no other such planets.

And one final thing, you're challenge of an explosion creating child birth is a bit absurd. The Big Bang Theory doesn't really attempt to explain how child birth came about, that's the Theory of Evolution. And the Theory of Evolution doesn't attempt to explain the origins of life, only how they've changed over time. While you may find it hard to believe that life could have developed without a god, and could have evolved over time without a god, the fact is that there is an alarming amount of evidence that supports that it might have happened. Simply dismissing the idea without even attempting to recognize the evidence in its favor is not going convince a whole lot people. And since leggy (I assume) wanted people to try to convince him that they're right, that should be something that you want to do.

Think about this for a second. There are three different kind of Christian like religion. Jewish, Muslin, and Christianity. Now, I am not going to actually talk about the bible, but many Christian-like references. The one that I find the most interesting, the triforce. Its kind weird how someone thought of this. There is three pieces of the triforce. Wisdom, Power, and Courage. There is also one triangle shape in the middle that points down. That triangle represents the Devil. The Fallen Angel, Lucifer, whatever you want to call him. The Triforce of power, God itself. The Triforce of wisdom, The Holy Spirit. Finally, The Triforce of Courage, Jesus. That is all I must say.