Titan127 : Yeah seems perfectly sensible to me, let's punish people for a mental sickness they can't even help having in the first place. And I don't really think they have it all that well to be honest, imagine yourself being confined to a certain space for several years not being able to see the outside world your life pretty much consisting of the same routine barely having any freedom at all.

And that seems perfectly sensible, let's hire people to torture other people with cheese graters I'm sure that wont affect the people hired negatively in any way (sarcasm).

And I'm not entirely sure on the exact number but it sure is a heck of a lot more then 1 in 350000 people who are innocently sentenced I think the last number I saw was at around 4% of those who are sentenced in other words something like 1 in 25 people are innocent.

And really? You don't think getting tortured each day for several years wont have some pretty disastrous effects heck I think most people would rather kill themselves then go through it.
 
And despite what you seem think most mental sicknesses are treatable and you can to some degree recover if not entirely recover from many of them.

Torturing people as punishment doesn't benefit society in any way.

Zlinqx : yes, perfectly sensible
But not to punish them for having the sickness itself, you're kind of missing the point of punishment. It isn't to hurt the people, it's simply to protect the general populace.
Not to mention, you really can't get reliable information for innocent people who are convicted. It's all speculation, and the court is much more, forgive me for repeating the word, reliable.
As for the torture, I would love, absolutely love, to get in there and torture these bastards, and it isn't like we'd be torturing everyone, I'm not talking about petty thieves and stuff, I'm talking about murderers, rapists, treason, terrorists, etc.

I only agree with the death penalty if the offender committed murder. But the legal system likes to put people on death row for crimes other then murder.

It's a catch 22 in my opinion but I'm not a law giver or judge.

Titan127 : Prison is a form of punishment. Torture isn't really going to protect people any more then putting people in prison would like I said actually probably less since people would probably try to escape much more if the only option they had was that or be tortured, and one of these so called "tortrures" could be working with them. 
People in that state of mind isn't going to change and I sincerely doubt slowly torturing people and watching them slowly die on the inside for years wont cause some pretty bad damage to both the one who is torturing and the one who is being tortured. 

And even so imagine you doing this over a long period of time then finding out one of the people who tortured was innocent and you've been torturing that same person for years. There's not really any sure fire way to know how many are innocently charged but considering dna evidence isn't even available in most cases it's a pretty size able amount. 

And what difference does it have what crime they committed? It will still have the same effects.

You're only thinking over a short period of time and not seeing the long term effects this would have. It would cost a whole lot more, people wouldn't really be any more safe and it would disastrous effects on society as a whole. And that's without even considering it on a moral level.

Zlinqx : Not really. If they're a psycho, they don't want to be tortured or tortured to death. And you just contradicted yourself. You said you don't want to punish people for their mental sickness, but that people in 'that state of mind aren't going to change.'
Not to mention that if they can escape, then the prisons need to be more secure.
As for the crime, I do understand that not every criminal deserves this kind of punishment, that's what difference that makes.
And I am looking over the long term. Guy comes out of prison, his entire forearm a cheese gating scar, he's literally going to be staring at a that as to why he shouldn't have done it, and his possible paranoia will drive others away from that path as well.
I don't believe in second chances. There are to few people who take them.

Titan127 : I didn't contradict myself but I guess I wasn't clear enough. I meant torturing them wont change their mind, they should be in a psychiatric hospital.

If any of them even makes it out of prison before they kill themselves or escape. Seems great, we'll have lots of ex prisoners who are mentally unstable and probably wont be able to recover from their time getting tortured by the government.

By that logic you should just be in support of the death penalty instead why let them out when you can just kill them outright? Oh wait that doesn't really lower the crime rate either even though you'd think most people would fear death in fact countries without the death penalty has a lower crime rate. So why would torture change that?

Not to mention all the other problems you haven't addressed.

The death penalty is as pointless as it is stupid. It also a sign of the unemotional. Just because someone messes up does not mean they are incapable of feeling. While emotionlessness may be a valid way of dealing with certain situations we must not forget that our feelings are there for us and while we may not always feel about things it is still something we never lose.

i for one am against the death penalty as we are all capable of doing better always and can reform or change after past issues.

Zlinqx : Meh. If the death penalty isn't wielded)which it isn't here in the U.S.) it becomes null. And if they can't recover, then that's their problem. Their miserable existence doesn't deserve anything happier. And escaping prison isn't as easy as movies make it seem. Only 2 percent of prisoners escape, although that's way to high of a number, and more than 90% of THEM are recovered leaving it at less than 2 in one thousand people. And those are minimal security prisons. Federal Prisoners just simply don't escape.

So that's that.

As for the death penalty/no death penalty. Many of those states put the death penalty into effect because of astronomical murder and crime rates, and those rates were reduced drastically by its implementation.

And I understand that prison is a form of punishment. It just isn't an effective one.
EDIT-PS-Regarding mental sickness.
If they haven't sought help yet, then I doubt they will. And I don't think taxpayer money should be wasted on them, because while you believe it is possible to cure them, even if it would work, they have to want it to work, just like rehab or school. And if they haven't sought help, then they probably don't want too. They are a leech to society. I have met people with mental sicknesses, and I don't think they can be cured, or that we should even waste our time trying.

Titan127 : Yeah let's punish them for something they were born with. And while people escape prison is uncommon it would create a lot more incentive to do so and in the process probably increase people who successfully escape.

And yet countries without the death penalty has lower crime rates, why isn't it that when the death penalty has been removed in certain states the crime rate hasn't gone up?

Not to mention it's still cheaper most of the time, it's reversible and isn't sinking to the level of the murderers.

Yeah because those people are totally in a state of mind to do so. Many times they don't even realize that they have a problem, if every single mental patient was aware they had a problem and wanted to be cured since day one things would be easier. You don't seem to realize that you can in fact improve mentally. People go to school despite not really wanting to and they still do alright, why is that? I know this better then most too mind you since many in my family work within psychiatric care. Not to mention it's not exactly something you're always born with many people can develop it later in their lives.

Zlinqx : Does anyone really want to go to school? No. But there is, even if its unconcious, an inherent lust for knowledge and to learn in all humans. And I've honesty never seen anyone get better, unless it's like stuttering or social awkwardness.
But psychopaths, sadists, etc, they can't be cured, you might think you've cured them, that they've been helped, but all you've done is show them how to blend into society better.
I don't want to kill them for something they're born with, but when they do kill someone, they don't deserve to live. The same goes for when they rape, or anything of the sort.
Even if, by some slight chance, you help them, they're still treated as handicaps if they aren't going to be punished.

As for your statement on the death penalty being removed. It's simple really. Order has been somewhat restored to the general populace. They don't feel the need to run rampant anymore, at least to some extent.

archaicConsul : All right, we've got quite a heated debate going here, as someone brought a third side into this and thinks that we should start torturing people now. (I say if that's what you want, then you try it first and see what you feel like afterwards.) I believe that the torture thing could lead to scarred prisoners...that seek revenge. Not saying for sure, but it is a possibility. Say the guy gets let go. He's going to "not kill anyone anymore" he's going to remember the treatment he received sure. The death penalty...Well, I believe that it is right. If someone committed horrible murders (and I'm thinking rape should go on this list too...just saying) Then I believe it is not right to let them live. 

Some might not like my reference here. But the Bible does say in genesis. It's after the flood, and GOD is giving instructions to noah. Now they are to eat meat. But notice the warning that GOD gives. Genesis 9:5-6 "And murder is forbidden. Man-killing animals must die, and any man who murders shall be killed; for to kill a man is to kill one made like GOD." 

As for the insane. I know this sounds real merciful. But don't even give them the chance to kill again. Don't be sending them away to the mental ward, where people have to deal with their insanity. Delete them.

FaithFighter : high five brother! Love it!

Titan127 : Since when were you on my side? Weren't you the one that wanted to torment them??? But thanks, anyway...

FaithFighter : I'm kind of confused as well but I guess that puts an end to the whole debate on torture which I've been trying to explain the exact same thing you said all along.

As for the death penalty many of the things I stated in counter to enacting torture applies here as well. I don't believe it's right to have a death penalty when there's a risk of innocent people being convicted since it isn't reversible. Furthermore although not exactly a 100% probability people are able to change since prison does give one a lot of time to think. And the death penalty is also more expensive on average than life imprisonment.

Not to mention the whole "let's show murder is wrong to a person by murdering them" seems really hypocritical to begin with.

Don't have much to say on your bible reference since I don't think it's a good idea to let any one religion affect how a country is ruled to begin also considering the first amendment.

About the insane, I think you should try rehabilitating them at first if possible (which it sometimes is) if that doesn't work though you could maybe look in to other ways to deal with them.

FaithFighter : well, for one, you should never argue with a high five, and two, you said we're getting rid of the mentally sick.
Zlinqx : The thing is, if they're getting the punishments, then they don't deserve a normal life. Like I've said before, I don't believe in second chances. When people get second chances, like Germany before World War Two, they go again. Therefore, secure the prisons, torture the guys, and slowly let them die.
You could also plant a bamboo seed underneath them and let the others sprout up around it. The bamboo won't stop growing. They won't escape that way.
XD

Titan127 : Well what's the point if just punishing a person if they're not going to have a second chance? You're supposed to learn from your mistakes by that logic you should just kill someone outright. And germany isn't really a person and considering the circumstances after world war 1 with how everything pretty much was blamed on germany alone it made people angry and Hitler was able to take advantage of that to gain power.

There is no point in slowly torturing people other then to enjoy watching them suffer and you'd have to ask yourself at that point which person who really needs help. Not to mention showing killing and hurting others is wrong by physically torturing them seems kind of hypocritical.

Okay seriously where do you come up with all of these torture methods wtf XD

Zlinqx : Definitely understand about the BIBLE, I expected that. It's not that I feel we're showing that murder is wrong by murdering the murderers. But when they are dead there's not much of a chance they'll be doing that again. That's the point of the death penalty. There are some things, murder (outright cold-blooded murder that is) is one of them, that are deemed so terrible that some feel that the criminal should not be given another chance to do it again. That's what the point of the death penalty is.

Titan127 : Sorry to argue the high five! Anyways, I've lived with mentally sick siblings, and I don't like the idea that other people have to go through that stuff as well. Plus, if a mentally ill person murdered someone. It just seems right that they should suffer the consequence for it. Instead of getting off because...their sick.

FaithFighter : I get what you're saying but since statistics have generally shown that countries without the death penalty have lower crime rates I don't think that argument holds up.

Zlinqx Which countries would you be speaking of? Unless you can give me the specifics, not buying that. Though I may get your point.

FaithFighter : Well firstly there's no actual reliable statistics that shows that the death penalty lowers the crime rate. Secondly states without the death penalty generally have lower homicide rates then those who don't. If you want a comparison between countries take the US (where most states enact the death penalty) and there's around 5 recorded homicide cases per 100 000 people compared to Sweden where I live where the death penalty is illegal and we have around 1 homicide case per 100 000 people.